AOC

[deadheadskier]

Did I say we should be free to sin without condemnation?

If his words are that homosexual relations are sin, he would not put gay people on this earth to begin with.

Do as I say, not what I put you there to do type of situation.

Quite honestly, your feelings on this subject matter are quite conflicting. My opinion is you either go all in on a more progressive interpretation of Christianity or you stick to the hardline that homosexuality is 100% unnatural and should not be supported. The middle ground you are staking is murky at best

[XtremeJibber2001]

Did I say we should be free to sin without condemnation?

If his words are that homosexual relations are sin, he would not put gay people on this earth to begin with.

Do as I say, not what I put you there to do type of situation.

Quite honestly, your feelings on this subject matter are quite conflicting. My opinion is you either go all in on a more progressive interpretation of Christianity or you stick to the hardline that homosexuality is 100% unnatural and should not be supported. The middle ground you are staking is murky at best

We’re all created by God and we're all abnormal in one way or the other. You may have a problem with lust, maybe I have an problem with greed, others have a problem with addictive behavior, etc. All of this traces back to our sinful nature starting at birth. Remember, God's creation was perfect in the beginning. Man messed it up. Christ was sent to give us a way to redeem ourselves.

There are a lot of topics in the Bible that are hard to grasp or make me uncomfortable. There are parts I don't fully understand. I'm not supposed to be comfortable and I'm not suppose to understand every single word. My understanding changes every day. I also don't make the rules. Maybe it's murky because I'm still wrestling with it myself? Honestly, I've never much given it a lot of deep thought. People are free to live how they wish, but I'm free to do the same ... sometimes how people live and how I live don't align and that's okay.

The fact we've managed this many posts and remained (for the most part) cordial is a feat in itself.

[Bubba]

Did I say we should be free to sin without condemnation?

If his words are that homosexual relations are sin, he would not put gay people on this earth to begin with.

Do as I say, not what I put you there to do type of situation.

Quite honestly, your feelings on this subject matter are quite conflicting. My opinion is you either go all in on a more progressive interpretation of Christianity or you stick to the hardline that homosexuality is 100% unnatural and should not be supported. The middle ground you are staking is murky at best

We’re all created by God and we're all abnormal in one way or the other. You may have a problem with lust, maybe I have an problem with greed, others have a problem with addictive behavior, etc. All of this traces back to our sinful nature starting at birth. Remember, God's creation was perfect in the beginning. Man messed it up. Christ was sent to give us a way to redeem ourselves.

There are a lot of topics in the Bible that are hard to grasp or make me uncomfortable. There are parts I don't fully understand. I'm not supposed to be comfortable and I'm not suppose to understand every single word. My understanding changes every day. I also don't make the rules. Maybe it's murky because I'm still wrestling with it myself? Honestly, I've never much given it a lot of deep thought. People are free to live how they wish, but I'm free to do the same ... sometimes how people live and how I live don't align and that's okay.

The fact we've managed this many posts and remained (for the most part) cordial is a feat in itself.

Given the fact that you’re still wrestling with the issue yourself, maybe you shouldn’t be arguing the point in the first place but, rather, look inward to find your path. The best way to look at an issue like this is to acknowledge that there probably isn’t an absolute. As the Pope said “Who am I to judge?”.

[deadheadskier]

But you have declared you believe people are naturally born gay just like heterosexual people are. There

just happens to be a whole lot less gay people.

So that literally means there is only one natural difference between a gay person and a straight person. One can procreate and one cannot.

I don't want to get too personal here, but doesn't this mean any sexual activity you and your wife enjoy without the intention of procreating is just as bad as gay sex?

That's the logical deduction.

[easyrider16]

God flooded the Earth. He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. He overturned the tables at the temple courts. He promises punishment/judgement when He returns. He's merciful and also just. Does being a good person grant you salvation because God is merciful? I think He's clear it doesn't, but He could be merciful or more likely He will be just. God’s merci isn’t a ticket to do whatever we want.

These are some of the most difficult aspects of the Bible for me. I find it hard to reconcile a just God with the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah and flooding of the Earth. Are we really to believe that Lot and his family and Noah and his family were the only people worth saving, and that everyone else should be destroyed? To make a modern analogy, this sounds like people who say we should nuke the Middle East. How can a just God commit what appears to be genocide?

This is an area where I look at the Bible through a critical lens. I don't believe it can be God's infallible word because it is enshrining what appears to be grave injustice. Rather, I think these are stories recorded by humans who imposed their own biases and beliefs on to them.

I think it's the same with what the New Testament says about homosexuality. Jesus never condemned homosexuality anywhere in the gospels, yet you have these apostles who came later and they condemn it. I think what you have there is fallible humans imposing their bias and social mores on Jesus' teachings. Just like some of the books of the old testament, I don't think these books of the new testament should be regarded as the infallible word of God. It seems to me that the word of God should only be the things God actually said, i.e. what Jesus said in the Gospels, and not what all these other fallible human prophets and apostles said. If you look at it that way, there's no conflict between following the teachings of Jesus Christ and homosexuality.

[asher2789]

My children will never suffer at the hands of me because I love them unconditionally.

That is where you are wrong. You may not think you are wrong, but you are. If you end up having a child who is gay, you will cause them incredible pain and suffering by telling them it is ok to be gay, but not ok to live as a gay person.

Parents make many choices and mine are not guided by whataboutism or how other parents tell me how they think I should parent. Everyone has a basis for their morality.

You’re entitled to your opinion, but asserting a parent will not love their child/children unconditionally is disrespectful.

I think where we go wrong in this country (maybe not just this country), Republican / democrat, Christian / Jew, agnostic / atheist, etc. is not respecting others humanity. We don’t have to accept their life choices, but we should respect them. As a society we can’t establish some list of groups that must be respected and others that can be disrespected. We also shouldn’t generalize and think because one member of a group does XYZ that all members of the group would do the same.

not accepting your future gay child is child abuse. end of story. twist it up however you like and smoke it for all i care. you're a homophobe, and a shitty parent as well - assuming you "hate the sin but not the sinner" except there is no difference.

[asher2789]

Wow asher, you seem to have some serious issues. I'm sorry you were bullied as a child. Luckily the world has become more accepting of the gay community. But then you go ranting about "breeders" and now you seem like as much of a dick as gay bashers are. Heterophobic is just as bad as homophobic.

people like you are why i left long island. yuck. cry me a river about how your feelings a hurt about being called a breeder and we can compare and contrast your precious hurt feelings to my physical, emotional and mental abuse based on my existence as a gay person that went on from elementary school to high school.

let's compare notes and then talk about how the two concepts are not even on different planets but in different galaxies.

Wow, I didn't know it was my fault that you had a shitty childhood. I'm very sorry for that. I'm sorry that the world hates you too. I'm sorry your such a hateful person too.....please let me know what else is my fault so I can apologize for that too. It's the least I can do since I personally made your life a living hell.

reading comprehension is tough, but for all i know you could of been my bully's parent. certainly wouldn't surprise me...

im not a hateful person. i hate people who hate people for the way they were born. the paradox of tolerance is that i won't tolerate intolerant people who think that their 5,000 year old fable is an excuse to discriminate against people like me.

also, for what its worth - some of the people responsible for my mistreatment as a kid/teenager have since apologized to me - out of nowhere - as adults. that's how bad it was, they felt guilty about it 10+ years after it happened.

[asher2789]

But you have declared you believe people are naturally born gay just like heterosexual people are. There

just happens to be a whole lot less gay people.

So that literally means there is only one natural difference between a gay person and a straight person. One can procreate and one cannot.

I don't want to get too personal here, but doesn't this mean any sexual activity you and your wife enjoy without the intention of procreating is just as bad as gay sex?

That's the logical deduction.

also, what about the straight couples who want to procreate but for whatever reason can't - are they "sinners" too for using what "god" gave them despite the fact it isn't leading to procreation?

[asher2789]

I think it's the same with what the New Testament says about homosexuality. Jesus never condemned homosexuality anywhere in the gospels, yet you have these apostles who came later and they condemn it. I think what you have there is fallible humans imposing their bias and social mores on Jesus' teachings. Just like some of the books of the old testament, I don't think these books of the new testament should be regarded as the infallible word of God. It seems to me that the word of God should only be the things God actually said, i.e. what Jesus said in the Gospels, and not what all these other fallible human prophets and apostles said. If you look at it that way, there's no conflict between following the teachings of Jesus Christ and homosexuality.

something of interest is to look up the different versions of the christian bible and how some were creatively translated with an extremely authoritarian bent (such as the king james version) for political reasons at the time.

for the majority of the time that the old/new testament has existed most people were completely uneducated and illiterate. having a pastor preaching fire and brimstone from the pulpit kept the plebes in check so they wouldn't threaten the political leadership and social standing in society. as the world has become more educated and connected with people very different than them (thanks to globalization and the internet) organized religious participation has essentially fallen off a cliff in western civilization. i think the masses have wizened up to the bible - like all religious texts of all religions - being nothing more than a fable/allegory.

[daytripper]

Wow asher, you seem to have some serious issues. I'm sorry you were bullied as a child. Luckily the world has become more accepting of the gay community. But then you go ranting about "breeders" and now you seem like as much of a dick as gay bashers are. Heterophobic is just as bad as homophobic.

people like you are why i left long island. yuck. cry me a river about how your feelings a hurt about being called a breeder and we can compare and contrast your precious hurt feelings to my physical, emotional and mental abuse based on my existence as a gay person that went on from elementary school to high school.

let's compare notes and then talk about how the two concepts are not even on different planets but in different galaxies.

Wow, I didn't know it was my fault that you had a shitty childhood. I'm very sorry for that. I'm sorry that the world hates you too. I'm sorry your such a hateful person too.....please let me know what else is my fault so I can apologize for that too. It's the least I can do since I personally made your life a living hell.

reading comprehension is tough, but for all i know you could of been my bully's parent. certainly wouldn't surprise me...

im not a hateful person. i hate people who hate people for the way they were born. the paradox of tolerance is that i won't tolerate intolerant people who think that their 5,000 year old fable is an excuse to discriminate against people like me.

also, for what its worth - some of the people responsible for my mistreatment as a kid/teenager have since apologized to me - out of nowhere - as adults. that's how bad it was, they felt guilty about it 10+ years after it happened.

Ummm, show me where I have a problem with gay people? I have gay friends and gay family members and I support them 100%. Your being gay has absolutely nothing to do with why I don't like you. I don't like the people who gave you sh*t for being gay. They are assholes. I don't like you because you hold being heterosexual against me. Makes you quite the hypocrite for attacking me.

[asher2789]

Wow asher, you seem to have some serious issues. I'm sorry you were bullied as a child. Luckily the world has become more accepting of the gay community. But then you go ranting about "breeders" and now you seem like as much of a dick as gay bashers are. Heterophobic is just as bad as homophobic.

people like you are why i left long island. yuck. cry me a river about how your feelings a hurt about being called a breeder and we can compare and contrast your precious hurt feelings to my physical, emotional and mental abuse based on my existence as a gay person that went on from elementary school to high school.

let's compare notes and then talk about how the two concepts are not even on different planets but in different galaxies.

Wow, I didn't know it was my fault that you had a shitty childhood. I'm very sorry for that. I'm sorry that the world hates you too. I'm sorry your such a hateful person too.....please let me know what else is my fault so I can apologize for that too. It's the least I can do since I personally made your life a living hell.

reading comprehension is tough, but for all i know you could of been my bully's parent. certainly wouldn't surprise me...

im not a hateful person. i hate people who hate people for the way they were born. the paradox of tolerance is that i won't tolerate intolerant people who think that their 5,000 year old fable is an excuse to discriminate against people like me.

also, for what its worth - some of the people responsible for my mistreatment as a kid/teenager have since apologized to me - out of nowhere - as adults. that's how bad it was, they felt guilty about it 10+ years after it happened.

Ummm, show me where I have a problem with gay people? I have gay friends and gay family members and I support them 100%. Your being gay has absolutely nothing to do with why I don't like you. I don't like the people who gave you sh*t for being gay. They are assholes. I don't like you because you hold being heterosexual against me. Makes you quite the hypocrite for attacking me.

again, like reverse racism, heterophobia doesn't exist. being "mean" towards straight people doesn't hold a candle to the structural inequity of being LGBTQ. nobody murders people for being straight. nobody denies housing or a job to someone because they are straight. nobody disowns their kids for being straight. nobody is bullied for being straight. stop trying to equate a "derogatory" word against straight people as anywhere near equivalence to the horrors faced by LGBTQ people.

[daytripper]

people like you are why i left long island. yuck. cry me a river about how your feelings a hurt about being called a breeder and we can compare and contrast your precious hurt feelings to my physical, emotional and mental abuse based on my existence as a gay person that went on from elementary school to high school.

let's compare notes and then talk about how the two concepts are not even on different planets but in different galaxies.

Wow, I didn't know it was my fault that you had a shitty childhood. I'm very sorry for that. I'm sorry that the world hates you too. I'm sorry your such a hateful person too.....please let me know what else is my fault so I can apologize for that too. It's the least I can do since I personally made your life a living hell.

reading comprehension is tough, but for all i know you could of been my bully's parent. certainly wouldn't surprise me...

im not a hateful person. i hate people who hate people for the way they were born. the paradox of tolerance is that i won't tolerate intolerant people who think that their 5,000 year old fable is an excuse to discriminate against people like me.

also, for what its worth - some of the people responsible for my mistreatment as a kid/teenager have since apologized to me - out of nowhere - as adults. that's how bad it was, they felt guilty about it 10+ years after it happened.

Ummm, show me where I have a problem with gay people? I have gay friends and gay family members and I support them 100%. Your being gay has absolutely nothing to do with why I don't like you. I don't like the people who gave you sh*t for being gay. They are assholes. I don't like you because you hold being heterosexual against me. Makes you quite the hypocrite for attacking me.

again, like reverse racism, heterophobia doesn't exist. being "mean" towards straight people doesn't hold a candle to the structural inequity of being LGBTQ. nobody murders people for being straight. nobody denies housing or a job to someone because they are straight. nobody disowns their kids for being straight. nobody is bullied for being straight. stop trying to equate a "derogatory" word against straight people as anywhere near equivalence to the horrors faced by LGBTQ people.

That's just ridiculous, of course reverse racism exists and so does heterophobia. Just cause you don't want it too does not mean it doesn't. I'm done with this conversation, I hope for your sake you can get over your hatred, it's not healthy.

[XtremeJibber2001]

Given the fact that you’re still wrestling with the issue yourself, maybe you shouldn’t be arguing the point in the first place but, rather, look inward to find your path. The best way to look at an issue like this is to acknowledge that there probably isn’t an absolute. As the Pope said “Who am I to judge?”.

Sorry if I wasn't clear, Bubba. When I said "Maybe it's murky because I'm still wrestling with it myself" I meant between my current understanding of the Bible and the more 'hardline' stance DHS mentions. My understanding has been consistent for decades so while I still spend time thinking about things in the Bible, there's nothing Biblical I've found that supports the more hardline stance. The Pope certainly isn't a judge and has no role in my denomination ... there's a lot of uniqueness to Catholicism, but trying to keep it short . Anyway, 'looking inward to find your path' is a path to sin.

But you have declared you believe people are naturally born gay just like heterosexual people are. There just happens to be a whole lot less gay people.

So that literally means there is only one natural difference between a gay person and a straight person. One can procreate and one cannot.

I don't want to get too personal here, but doesn't this mean any sexual activity you and your wife enjoy without the intention of procreating is just as bad as gay sex?

That's the logical deduction.

I've declared nothing. God declares it and I have faith in God.

I understand why you'd ask the question about married heterosexual intercourse without intent to procreate. However, there's no scripture that supports your assertion/question.

These are some of the most difficult aspects of the Bible for me.

For me it's Revelation.

I find it hard to reconcile a just God with the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah and flooding of the Earth. Are we really to believe that Lot and his family and Noah and his family were the only people worth saving, and that everyone else should be destroyed? To make a modern analogy, this sounds like people who say we should nuke the Middle East. How can a just God commit what appears to be genocide?

This is an area where I look at the Bible through a critical lens. I don't believe it can be God's infallible word because it is enshrining what appears to be grave injustice. Rather, I think these are stories recorded by humans who imposed their own biases and beliefs on to them.

I think it's the same with what the New Testament says about homosexuality. Jesus never condemned homosexuality anywhere in the gospels, yet you have these apostles who came later and they condemn it. I think what you have there is fallible humans imposing their bias and social mores on Jesus' teachings. Just like some of the books of the old testament, I don't think these books of the new testament should be regarded as the infallible word of God. It seems to me that the word of God should only be the things God actually said, i.e. what Jesus said in the Gospels, and not what all these other fallible human prophets and apostles said. If you look at it that way, there's no conflict between following the teachings of Jesus Christ and homosexuality.

I don't have the time or patience to write a thoughtful response to everything you've laid out. Topics that would be far easier to discuss in person. If you don't believe God speaks through the apostles then any conversation is kind of a non-starter. I've heard it once said that the Bible is not a salad bar ... you can't read through and pick some parts you choose to believe and other parts you choose to ignore/dispute.

not accepting your future gay child is child abuse. end of story. twist it up however you like and smoke it for all i care. you're a homophobe, and a shitty parent as well - assuming you "hate the sin but not the sinner" except there is no difference.

You care because you're here and posting. You command acceptance and give yourself license to hate anyone that won't give it to you. There's no love and respect of others humanity in that way of thinking.

also, what about the straight couples who want to procreate but for whatever reason can't - are they "sinners" too for using what "god" gave them despite the fact it isn't leading to procreation?

They're not sinners.

as the world has become more educated and connected with people very different than them (thanks to globalization and the internet) organized religious participation has essentially fallen off a cliff in western civilization. i think the masses have wizened up to the bible - like all religious texts of all religions - being nothing more than a fable/allegory.

Your assertion is without merit.

According to a 2015 Pew Research Center study, by 2050, the Christian population is expected to be 2.9 billion. According to a 2017 Pew Research Center survey, by 2060 Christians will remain the world's largest religion; and the number of Christians will reach 3.05 billion (or 31.8%).

[deadheadskier]

Where does God declare people are born naturally gay?

And I would argue that the Bible very much is a salad bar in modern times with the ways various sects have adapted it to attract more followers.

Pope Francis has a different interpretation of the bible than Pope Benedict. And so does Joel Osteen

[XtremeJibber2001]

Where does God declare people are born naturally gay?

Scripture says we're born sinners. It also says homosexuality is a sin.

And I would argue that the Bible very much is a salad bar in modern times with the ways various sects have adapted it to attract more followers.

I won't argue with you there. I don't know enough about why each denomination did what it did. My faith is the Bible. We read directly from it. We don't modify it's words, remove words, modify meanings, modernize, stray away from hard topics, etc.

Pope Francis has a different interpretation of the bible than Pope Benedict. And so does Joel Osteen

Yes, because they're part of two different denominations.

I remember when my grandmother passed away I was asked to read a verse at a Catholic church. They chose it for me, just asked me to read it. I read it a few times before hand in my Bible. When I get to the church the pastor gives me the verse on a piece of paper. There was literally a sentence removed to comport with Catholicism.