World Cup Race: 144 hours of snowmaking

[Dr. NO]

I've offered a DETAILED analysis based on PAST PERFORMANCE, linked earlier in this thread. There is a greater than 50% chance that skiing will be massively disrupted for normal paying customers, from late October to early December. Or possibly much worse. The likelihood of this event being an overall success is low. How is this possibly a good business decision?

Superstar is 3400ft long, and roughly 200ft wide, 300ft wide at the bottom. Lets call it 15 acres. They need to put down roughly 5 feet of snow to get the base depths required to groom the hill nice and flat.....trust me, race teams will not be happy if they keep shanking rocks. So that's 75 acre feet of snow. About what it would take to get the northridge triple open and a snowdon route open, with decent but marginal coverage, to the bottom of the K-1. They have to make all this snow by around Nov 20th, the weekend prior, so they can get the hill prepped and allow some training on it.

what has Killington's past performance been like? Well, some years they do great, and have the snowdon route plus many other trails open by thanksgiving, say 150 acre feet of snow (after melting) by Nov. 20th - this is the max. The average is probably somewhere around 100 acre-ft after melting by Nov 20th, enough to get open top to bottom on the K-1, plus a few more trails. In a poor year, they have just a few trails open off the northridge triple, or are closed entirely, with only 10-20 acre feet of snow on the ground.

Width of a slalom course is 40 meters, which translates to 10 acres. If production is low due to weather, you can keep the trail closed to the public and get away with far less than 5 feet over the entire trail. Even 3 feet is generous. That gets you 30 acre feet of snow, a third of your stated 100 acre feet average. Add to that average the added air capacity that will be brought in to make more snow than average, and your "detailed analysis" looks pretty weak.

That 40 feet does not include the safety margin. Fences need snow to install properly and some area you have to double or triple layer the fence. Each fence is about 2 meters tall and the layers must be about 2 meters apart so each can absorb an impact by the racer. If you have double layer on both sides you need another 12 to 15 feet more on the trail width to set the safety netting. Could create problems if the weather doesn't help with snow making.

[Highway Star]

I've offered a DETAILED analysis based on PAST PERFORMANCE, linked earlier in this thread. There is a greater than 50% chance that skiing will be massively disrupted for normal paying customers, from late October to early December. Or possibly much worse. The likelihood of this event being an overall success is low. How is this possibly a good business decision?

Superstar is 3400ft long, and roughly 200ft wide, 300ft wide at the bottom. Lets call it 15 acres. They need to put down roughly 5 feet of snow to get the base depths required to groom the hill nice and flat.....trust me, race teams will not be happy if they keep shanking rocks. So that's 75 acre feet of snow. About what it would take to get the northridge triple open and a snowdon route open, with decent but marginal coverage, to the bottom of the K-1. They have to make all this snow by around Nov 20th, the weekend prior, so they can get the hill prepped and allow some training on it.

what has Killington's past performance been like? Well, some years they do great, and have the snowdon route plus many other trails open by thanksgiving, say 150 acre feet of snow (after melting) by Nov. 20th - this is the max. The average is probably somewhere around 100 acre-ft after melting by Nov 20th, enough to get open top to bottom on the K-1, plus a few more trails. In a poor year, they have just a few trails open off the northridge triple, or are closed entirely, with only 10-20 acre feet of snow on the ground.

Width of a slalom course is 40 meters, which translates to 10 acres. If production is low due to weather, you can keep the trail closed to the public and get away with far less than 5 feet over the entire trail. Even 3 feet is generous. That gets you 30 acre feet of snow, a third of your stated 100 acre feet average. Add to that average the added air capacity that will be brought in to make more snow than average, and your "detailed analysis" looks pretty weak.

HAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAH. You're an idiot.

[Mister Moose]

Width of a slalom course is 40 meters, which translates to 10 acres. If production is low due to weather, you can keep the trail closed to the public and get away with far less than 5 feet over the entire trail. Even 3 feet is generous. That gets you 30 acre feet of snow, a third of your stated 100 acre feet average. Add to that average the added air capacity that will be brought in to make more snow than average, and your "detailed analysis" looks pretty weak.

That 40 feet does not include the safety margin. Fences need snow to install properly and some area you have to double or triple layer the fence. Each fence is about 2 meters tall and the layers must be about 2 meters apart so each can absorb an impact by the racer. If you have double layer on both sides you need another 12 to 15 feet more on the trail width to set the safety netting. Could create problems if the weather doesn't help with snow making.

Doc, that's 40 meters. 130 feet minimum trail width, trees to trees.

[Highway Star]

Lets see.

30 acre feet of snow costs about $30K to make.

Average ski team shows up with, oh, lets say $100k+ worth of skis (including labor/overhead cost to prep them).

Will they be taking out their $100k worth of skis on Killington's $30k worth of snow?

[madhatter]

Lets see.

30 acre feet of snow costs about $30K to make.

Average ski team shows up with, oh, lets say $100k+ worth of skis (including labor/overhead cost to prep them).

Will they be taking out their $100k worth of skis on Killington's $30k worth of snow?

so do they boycott areas w natural snow cuz it's free? or was there supposed to be some "other logic" to your imbecilic post?

[Highway Star]

Wow, you guys are dense. Like remember to breathe.

http://www.skiracing.com/premium/killin ... up-circuit" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

144 hours is an official estimate resulting from the World Cup course requirements, the trail dimensions, known snowmaking capability, and the historic average weather. No, STUPID, they aren't going to make 30 acre feet of snow and call it good. If they make 30 acre feet of snow, the FIS inspector who shows up a week (10 days?) before the race is going to say *NOPE*, and whole traveling circus won't even get on a plane to come here. Buh bye.

This isn't the ski bum race or BMMC.

144 hours is a pretty reasonable estimate - that's about .5 acre feet an hour (on one trail) to get 70+ acre feet. That's within Killington's capabilities in decent temps. But I'm sure they would want more. Good luck.....................

[madhatter]

Wow, you guys are dense. Like remember to breathe.

http://www.skiracing.com/premium/killin ... up-circuit" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

144 hours is an official estimate resulting from the World Cup course requirements, the trail dimensions, known snowmaking capability, and the historic average weather. No, STUPID, they aren't going to make 30 acre feet of snow and call it good. If they make 30 acre feet of snow, the FIS inspector who shows up a week (10 days?) before the race is going to say *NOPE*, and whole traveling circus won't even get on a plane to come here. Buh bye.which has absolutely NOTHING to do with the cost of snow, but the quantity of snow, and you know that...the question is why do you make such stupid statements to supposedly bolster your case when they do nothing of the sort?

This isn't the ski bum race or BMMC.

144 hours is a pretty reasonable estimate - that's about .5 acre feet an hour (on one trail) to get 70+ acre feet. That's within Killington's capabilities in decent temps. But I'm sure they would want more. Good luck.....................

so yer back to stating the ridiculously obvious, that the weather will be one of the biggest determining factors in the success of this event... I'm sure you're the ONLY one who took that into consideration... do you imagine that K has no idea what the requirements are and are just gonna send some guys out w some hoses and snow guns and say " try to make it look good"? do you think no one stopped to think about what the weather can be like here in november? Where else in the US can you ski in november that also has the ability to host a downhill race? perhaps the sanctioning body is willing to take that risk in order to facilitate an early start and or longer season...

your big beef seems to be the impact on your skiing thanksgiving weekend...maybe they'll give you a refund on yer pass if yer denied access to the snow that weekend and you can really go to sugarbush? I rarely if ever ski that weekend anyway so total DILLIGAF here...

from previous history and statements made here it seems there were 3 of 10 years where it would have been extremely difficult if not impossible to pull this off on the same dates. so 70% chance the weather is conducive? 5 events were cancelled because of snow conditions last year, so apparently this is a common occurrence? seems this was baked into the cake already...so K does risk the loss of whatever they put into making this event happen, perhaps they even have insurance should things not pan out... otherwise the loss is minimal...on the flip side IF it happens and becomes an annual event it's a tremendous opportunity for K and the greater K area...

smart business people DO take risks like that, because they pay big dividends vs the capital outlay required to "get in"...people who live and ski here ARE rooting for the mtn to have success here...hell I don;t even think K's competitors wish as much ill will on them as you do...


and of course ya still suck at skiing but it's hardly worth wasting time to point out the obvious...

K365

[Highway Star]

Wow, you guys are dense. Like remember to breathe.

http://www.skiracing.com/premium/killin ... up-circuit" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

144 hours is an official estimate resulting from the World Cup course requirements, the trail dimensions, known snowmaking capability, and the historic average weather. No, STUPID, they aren't going to make 30 acre feet of snow and call it good. If they make 30 acre feet of snow, the FIS inspector who shows up a week (10 days?) before the race is going to say *NOPE*, and whole traveling circus won't even get on a plane to come here. Buh bye.which has absolutely NOTHING to do with the cost of snow, but the quantity of snow, and you know that...the question is why do you make such stupid statements to supposedly bolster your case when they do nothing of the sort?

This isn't the ski bum race or BMMC.

144 hours is a pretty reasonable estimate - that's about .5 acre feet an hour (on one trail) to get 70+ acre feet. That's within Killington's capabilities in decent temps. But I'm sure they would want more. Good luck.....................

so yer back to stating the ridiculously obvious, that the weather will be one of the biggest determining factors in the success of this event... I'm sure you're the ONLY one who took that into consideration... do you imagine that K has no idea what the requirements are and are just gonna send some guys out w some hoses and snow guns and say " try to make it look good"? do you think no one stopped to think about what the weather can be like here in november? Where else in the US can you ski in november that also has the ability to host a downhill race? perhaps the sanctioning body is willing to take that risk in order to facilitate an early start and or longer season...

your big beef seems to be the impact on your skiing thanksgiving weekend...maybe they'll give you a refund on yer pass if yer denied access to the snow that weekend and you can really go to sugarbush? I rarely if ever ski that weekend anyway so total DILLIGAF here...

from previous history and statements made here it seems there were 3 of 10 years where it would have been extremely difficult if not impossible to pull this off on the same dates. so 70% chance the weather is conducive? 5 events were cancelled because of snow conditions last year, so apparently this is a common occurrence? seems this was baked into the cake already...so K does risk the loss of whatever they put into making this event happen, perhaps they even have insurance should things not pan out... otherwise the loss is minimal...on the flip side IF it happens and becomes an annual event it's a tremendous opportunity for K and the greater K area...

smart business people DO take risks like that, because they pay big dividends vs the capital outlay required to "get in"...people who live and ski here ARE rooting for the mtn to have success here...hell I don;t even think K's competitors wish as much ill will on them as you do...


and of course ya still suck at skiing but it's hardly worth wasting time to point out the obvious...

K365

I'm sure it will be great for you!

[rogman]

Sheesh what a bunch of bloviating blowhards. I'm obviously needed here...
1. Say what you will about the Dew Tour, Killington pulled it off. I rode the lift with some of the contestants; nice kids. To say that Killington didn't learn from their mistakes (and there were some) is idiotic. They succeeded, they'll do better.
2. HS, I'm wicked impressed with your ability to multiply length, width and height and come up with the volume of snow needed. And then to divide by another volume (the amount of snow per hour) and come up with how long it will take! Holy sh*t! You even factored in the weather (Your inner ground hog says November might be warm). Jesus f***' Christ, I can't believe Jeff Temple hasn't PM'd you to come work out the logistics for him, 'cause obviously this sh*t's beyond him. (Dear HS, please come run the largest snow making system on the planet for me. I'm in way over my head. All these snow gun manuals have my head spinning. I can't believe you read all of them. Jeff).
3. I've been told Jeff's building a whole separate snow making system just for this event so it won't impact opening the rest of the mountain. While I'll believe it when I see it, my interpretation is at minimum additional compressors. I don't think they'll be water limited, they can draw from Snowshed and the Bear ponds, but who knows. I don't think the towers they have their are great in marginal conditions. It will be interesting to see what they do, go to Taylor Rental and get a few dozen fan guns? It'll be fun to watch how they handle the challenge; I expect to be impressed.
4. Did I mention that Jeff's been making snow since HS was in kindegarten? He's got this.

[ANGUS]

To all the Haters:

You're clearly a bunch of losers whose egos are soooo tied to the mountain you ski at that you can't stand someone being realistically critical of it. Furthermore, POWDR has been ripping you off for 10 years straight. I may ski at Killington, but I get my money's worth in skier visits and strongly avoid giving their company any more money than necessary. I view them as a bunch of carpet baggers that will be gone eventually.

Oh, and I can ski circles around all of you put together. Why would I waste my time trying to prove it to you? Why would I bother? You're not even close.

This event has a strong chance of failing, making the mountain look bad, and messing up the entire ski season. Smart managers and business owners and don't take this kind of risk - but we're not dealing with smart people here, are we?

highway turd I told you already you are not relevant. You should be quiet now. You're welcome to ski in a circle around me anytime. Pretty sure you'll never complete the circle. Or show up to try.

I find it funny how you're such an expert pertaining to all things Killington. Did you ever work at Killington? Did you hold the top office in the green building? You sound like you know it all. Funny thing is you don't.

You must be a very miserable person. You have nothing else to think about besides K being able to pull this off? You really need to get a life. Get out of your mothers basement once in a while. The fresh air might do you some good.

Keep talking trash about Killington. Hope your mom can afford an attorney. Son you're gonna get yourself sued! Hell I'd finance the litigation myself just to know what your miserable existence looks like. It might be fun to make a project out of you. Oh wait. I have a life and better things to do.

In closing. highway turd please move on to the bush or any where besides here. Keep quiet. Go away. Leave this race to the qualified men and women running it. I don't want to see any post on this site from you again. Let me thank you in advance for your future silence. Now go away!!!!

[Highway Star]

(something stupid I didn't even read)

ANGUS

Online
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Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2016 3:35 pm
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[Highway Star]

Sheesh what a bunch of bloviating blowhards. I'm obviously needed here...
1. Say what you will about the Dew Tour, Killington pulled it off. I rode the lift with some of the contestants; nice kids. To say that Killington didn't learn from their mistakes (and there were some) is idiotic. They succeeded, they'll do better.
2. HS, I'm wicked impressed with your ability to multiply length, width and height and come up with the volume of snow needed. And then to divide by another volume (the amount of snow per hour) and come up with how long it will take! Holy sh*t! You even factored in the weather (Your inner ground hog says November might be warm). Jesus f***' Christ, I can't believe Jeff Temple hasn't PM'd you to come work out the logistics for him, 'cause obviously this sh*t's beyond him. (Dear HS, please come run the largest snow making system on the planet for me. I'm in way over my head. All these snow gun manuals have my head spinning. I can't believe you read all of them. Jeff).
3. I've been told Jeff's building a whole separate snow making system just for this event so it won't impact opening the rest of the mountain. While I'll believe it when I see it, my interpretation is at minimum additional compressors. I don't think they'll be water limited, they can draw from Snowshed and the Bear ponds, but who knows. I don't think the towers they have their are great in marginal conditions. It will be interesting to see what they do, go to Taylor Rental and get a few dozen fan guns? It'll be fun to watch how they handle the challenge; I expect to be impressed.
4. Did I mention that Jeff's been making snow since HS was in kindegarten? He's got this.

[ANGUS]

There is going to be very limited skiing available to the public before December.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=40816" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The people running Killington are on crack.

What about in 2006 when Killington didn't open until Thanksgiving Day, or 2009 when they were closed all of Thanksgiving weekend? What about the DEW TOUR held in January being a huge drain on resources? They will need to blow in excess of 100 acre feet of snow by Thanksgiving week to pull this off, which is something they can only do only 50% of the time.

POWDR is run by a bunch of morons.

Sounds great to me as I am never up thanksgiving weekend, but I can just imagine how crazy it will be on the limited terrain. Also They would have to blow a ton of snow on SS so that there is no chance it will melt out in a thaw, will that be taking away from other early season snowmaking? They like to blow the glacier when it is perfect snowmaking conditions and this would force them to blow it in less than stellar conditions making it much more expensive.

This is PURE INSANITY, what they are considering doing. It's either going to fail completely, or there's going to be extremely limited skiing for the public in November. The public / online backlash is going to cost them far more than any positive publicity they could possibly get out of it.

------
Edit:

Well, put this to the BS test then....

Superstar is 3400ft long, and roughly 200ft wide, 300ft wide at the bottom. Lets call it 15 acres. They need to put down roughly 5 feet of snow to get the base depths required to groom the hill nice and flat.....trust me, race teams will not be happy if they keep shanking rocks. So that's 75 acre feet of snow. About what it would take to get the northridge triple open and a snowdon route open, with decent but marginal coverage, to the bottom of the K-1. They have to make all this snow by around Nov 20th, the weekend prior, so they can get the hill prepped and allow some training on it.

Now, without getting into the details of the low-e snowguns, which are FAR less effective than old style snowguns at marginal temps..........what has Killington's past performance been like? Well, some years they do great, and have the snowdon route plus many other trails open by thanksgiving, say 150 acre feet of snow (after melting) by Nov. 20th - this is the max. The average is probably somewhere around 100 acre-ft after melting by Nov 20th, enough to get open top to bottom on the K-1, plus a few more trails. In a poor year, they have just a few trails open off the northridge triple, or are closed entirely, with only 10-20 acre feet of snow on the ground.

Now what about this race? They are contractually commited to host it and if they can't pull it off, they stand to loose a pile of money. Hopefully they have insurance for this sort of thing. Lets compare senarios based on past winters - each of these happen about a third of the time:

Cold November: No problem, race happens, skiing for public likely on other trails off superstar chairs, plus K-1, NRT and Snowdon.

Average November: Race draws most snowmaking resouces for first half of November. Superstar might be open to public for first half of November. Snowmaking on K-1 / NRT starts once Superstar looks to be in good shape, public skiing only on NRT for Thanksgiving weekend (45 minute lift lines).

Warm, rainy November: Snowmaking focused entirely on Superstar, during small overnight windows of snowmaking, with several r*in events melting snow. No public skiing on Thanksgiving weekend.

So, by my estimates they have a 2/3rd's chance of having either NO public skiing, or skiing on the NRT only for Thanksgiving - both of those are pretty bad senarios.

This is not even taking into account the chances of an ice storm, major r*in storm, or 70F thaw the week of the event.

EPIC FAIL!

Oh I'm sorry. Did I hurt inner highway turds feelings. Keep making statements like you do. I don't think you allowance will be enough to get you off the hook. No public defenders for civil cases. I think your moms home. You better pull up your pants and get upstairs. Maybe put her panties back.

[Highway Star]

There is going to be very limited skiing available to the public before December.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=40816" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The people running Killington are on crack.

What about in 2006 when Killington didn't open until Thanksgiving Day, or 2009 when they were closed all of Thanksgiving weekend? What about the DEW TOUR held in January being a huge drain on resources? They will need to blow in excess of 100 acre feet of snow by Thanksgiving week to pull this off, which is something they can only do only 50% of the time.

POWDR is run by a bunch of morons.

Sounds great to me as I am never up thanksgiving weekend, but I can just imagine how crazy it will be on the limited terrain. Also They would have to blow a ton of snow on SS so that there is no chance it will melt out in a thaw, will that be taking away from other early season snowmaking? They like to blow the glacier when it is perfect snowmaking conditions and this would force them to blow it in less than stellar conditions making it much more expensive.

This is PURE INSANITY, what they are considering doing. It's either going to fail completely, or there's going to be extremely limited skiing for the public in November. The public / online backlash is going to cost them far more than any positive publicity they could possibly get out of it.

------
Edit:

Well, put this to the BS test then....

Superstar is 3400ft long, and roughly 200ft wide, 300ft wide at the bottom. Lets call it 15 acres. They need to put down roughly 5 feet of snow to get the base depths required to groom the hill nice and flat.....trust me, race teams will not be happy if they keep shanking rocks. So that's 75 acre feet of snow. About what it would take to get the northridge triple open and a snowdon route open, with decent but marginal coverage, to the bottom of the K-1. They have to make all this snow by around Nov 20th, the weekend prior, so they can get the hill prepped and allow some training on it.

Now, without getting into the details of the low-e snowguns, which are FAR less effective than old style snowguns at marginal temps..........what has Killington's past performance been like? Well, some years they do great, and have the snowdon route plus many other trails open by thanksgiving, say 150 acre feet of snow (after melting) by Nov. 20th - this is the max. The average is probably somewhere around 100 acre-ft after melting by Nov 20th, enough to get open top to bottom on the K-1, plus a few more trails. In a poor year, they have just a few trails open off the northridge triple, or are closed entirely, with only 10-20 acre feet of snow on the ground.

Now what about this race? They are contractually commited to host it and if they can't pull it off, they stand to loose a pile of money. Hopefully they have insurance for this sort of thing. Lets compare senarios based on past winters - each of these happen about a third of the time:

Cold November: No problem, race happens, skiing for public likely on other trails off superstar chairs, plus K-1, NRT and Snowdon.

Average November: Race draws most snowmaking resouces for first half of November. Superstar might be open to public for first half of November. Snowmaking on K-1 / NRT starts once Superstar looks to be in good shape, public skiing only on NRT for Thanksgiving weekend (45 minute lift lines).

Warm, rainy November: Snowmaking focused entirely on Superstar, during small overnight windows of snowmaking, with several r*in events melting snow. No public skiing on Thanksgiving weekend.

So, by my estimates they have a 2/3rd's chance of having either NO public skiing, or skiing on the NRT only for Thanksgiving - both of those are pretty bad senarios.

This is not even taking into account the chances of an ice storm, major r*in storm, or 70F thaw the week of the event.

EPIC FAIL!

Oh I'm sorry. Did I hurt inner highway turds feelings. Keep making statements like you do. I don't think you allowance will be enough to get you off the hook. No public defenders for civil cases. I think your moms home. You better pull up your pants and get upstairs. Maybe put her panties back.

Oh, so you've been here 3 months and you have a perverted fantasy that Killington is going to sue me for being critical of them?

[skiadikt]

just a reminder of true skiing greatness. NICE TURNS MAN!!!!!!!!!!!!