big announcement from K tomorrow at 9 am...

[skiadikt]

seriously? what did the other big contest (cant even remember the name of it) do for you? did it help improve your skiing or riding experience? didnt think so...

Like many things in marketing, the benefit is indirect. It will bring people to the area on a weekend that is pretty dead, and promote Killington nationwide. It is a chance to for the place to shine. Sure I'd rather have all the money go into infrastructure improvements and snow making, but history has shown that a good product with poor marketing will ultimately lose to an inferior product with great marketing. You have to take a long range view of event like this. The whole point is to draw people in that don't normally come to Killington. If a few regulars go somewhere else for the weekend, so what? This will attract new customers.

i get the marketing aspect. if it's on tv and the mtn gets promotion, that can be a good thing. as for drawing people who don't normally come to killington that particular weekend. other than the competitors, family & friends i don't see it. if i was someone who was not a k regular but was planning to do a weekend at k, i would NOT chose a weekend that was having major event/competition. bmcc can draw other people to the mtn because of it's rep for the biggest party or now as a rock concert promotion but i don't see people streaming up to k to see an event that you can't see well on the mtn anyway and that will shut down parts of the mtn that are probably most popular with those occasional skiers.

I always thought that skiing into June thing was a good bit of marketing. Well, that's just me.

that's why i'm here ...

[junior]

seriously? what did the other big contest (cant even remember the name of it) do for you? did it help improve your skiing or riding experience? didnt think so...

Like many things in marketing, the benefit is indirect. It will bring people to the area on a weekend that is pretty dead, and promote Killington nationwide. It is a chance to for the place to shine. Sure I'd rather have all the money go into infrastructure improvements and snow making, but history has shown that a good product with poor marketing will ultimately lose to an inferior product with great marketing. You have to take a long range view of event like this. The whole point is to draw people in that don't normally come to Killington. If a few regulars go somewhere else for the weekend, so what? This will attract new customers.

i get the marketing aspect. if it's on tv and the mtn gets promotion, that can be a good thing. as for drawing people who don't normally come to killington that particular weekend. other than the competitors, family & friends i don't see it. if i was someone who was not a k regular but was planning to do a weekend at k, i would NOT chose a weekend that was having major event/competition. bmcc can draw other people to the mtn because of it's rep for the biggest party or now as a rock concert promotion but i don't see people streaming up to k to see an event that you can't see well on the mtn anyway and that will shut down parts of the mtn that are probably most popular with those occasional skiers.

I always thought that skiing into June thing was a good bit of marketing. Well, that's just me.

Obviously not. Just ask Powdr Corp.

[rogman]

I was very critical of their initial moves. Two things I said at the time:
1. You don't give up market share, particularly when the market is stagnant. Vermont skier visits have been a tad above 4 million going on 15 years now.
2. It is easier to keep an existing customer than get a new one. Their aggressive price restructuring, their approach to discounting (e.g. Conn. Ski Council) drove away a lot of people.

However, they are in the river now. Time to move forward; adjust and move on. There are not going to be new lifts, the interconnect, early and late season skiing, or even extensive snow making unless Killington/POWDR grows their business. Likewise, you aren't going to have the buzz along the Access Road unless you get more people coming to Killington. You may not like it, but that's the way it works. I'm more than willing to have the place be a little more crowded, in return for the things that I want. Those private ski areas have not done to well.

More accurately, Killington's traditional metro-Boston market is at The River now. Their metro-NYC & DirtyJersey market that has no viable alternative is what remains.

I don't blame POWDR for that; that was Les Otten's doing. Killington has not had a significant Boston presence for a long time. Granted, POWDR has done nothing to change that. The current perception in the Metro Boston area is that Killington, like you say, is a bunch of Jersey Joey's, why would anyone want to go there? POWDR's perception of the problem seems to be that "no one goes to Killington anymore, it's too crowded", but that's an oversimplification, it's really more complicated than that. Geoff, you've talked about losing "critical mass", well, at some point, Killington lost "Critical MA", and people from the Boston area just stopped going because none of their friends were going their either. The ironic thing is, is that people who ski both, tend to prefer Killington, it's a far better mountain.

[Geoff]

but i don't see people streaming up to k to see an event that you can't see well on the mtn anyway and that will shut down parts of the mtn that are probably most popular with those occasional skiers.

As the demographic has changed, it's probably important to associate the Killington brand with the biggest & baddest terrain parks and half pipes. Instead of killing the tourons with VW-sized bumps on OL like back in the Weinbrecht era, they now get killed on a huge half pipe, immense man-made wooden terrain park features, and monster airs that send you into the next zip code. If it sells $82.00 day tickets that keep the resort going, so be it. I have no problem sacrificing Wildfire, Bear Claw, and Dream Maker. That part of the mountain sucks anyways. I still think they should put a terrain park underneath the new lift. You want 4 or 5 people to get killed on Darwin Rock every year. Daily body bags in The Stash. A Medivac chopper in the Bear Lot. Mount Snow has wimpy Carinthia. If you're a real man, you park at Bear, zip into your Salomon Gangsta suit, ride the Skye Peak Express, and risk death at the mighty Killington. If you survive, you brag about it and are sure to get laid by your flock of groupies.

[SkiDork]

Wait a minute - somebody on AZone just posted they have a lot of free shwag at these Dew Tour events. I'm gonna reconsider my statement that its not beneficial for the customer. Bring on the shwag!!!

[JerseyGuy]

seriously? what did the other big contest (cant even remember the name of it) do for you? did it help improve your skiing or riding experience? didnt think so...

Like many things in marketing, the benefit is indirect. It will bring people to the area on a weekend that is pretty dead, and promote Killington nationwide. It is a chance to for the place to shine. Sure I'd rather have all the money go into infrastructure improvements and snow making, but history has shown that a good product with poor marketing will ultimately lose to an inferior product with great marketing. You have to take a long range view of event like this. The whole point is to draw people in that don't normally come to Killington. If a few regulars go somewhere else for the weekend, so what? This will attract new customers.

OK, I'll bite.

Multi-mountain events like these have existed for years. (This one is relatively new.)

Ski resorts have existed for years. (Killington is relatively old.)

Ski resorts have hosted multi-mountain events like these for years.

Please give me a list of ski resorts who have "shone" for more than two or three days at a time thanks to wildly expensive multi-mountain events like these.

Please also give me a list of resorts whose growth trajectory has been fundamentally altered by multi-mountain events like these (homegrown and/or legacy events don't count -- this ain't BMMC).

Please also list the stops on THIS Tour over the past two years AND last year's winners WITHOUT consulting the interweb. (Chances are real good that you're lying if you say you don't need Google to answer either question.)

[Geoff]

Geoff, you've talked about losing "critical mass", well, at some point, Killington lost "Critical MA", and people from the Boston area just stopped going because none of their friends were going their either. The ironic thing is, is that people who ski both, tend to prefer Killington, it's a far better mountain.

I've done the evaluation quite a few times. The 250" vs 125" thing and the terrain & surface that 250" makes possible is what always prevented me from changing mountains. In most other aspects, the two resorts are more similar than different. The value proposition of owning in Newry with a Boyne pass is certainly better than what Killington offers today.

[Highway Star]

http://www.newschoolers.com/web/forums/ ... id/550827/

[skifaster]

Kill this thread...

[spanky]

well now, who were the couple on facebook, that were in the "ballpark"

I would suspect it was the person who stated something about the Killington hosting the women's downhill. A little bit of a stretch.

IMO, this event is not a bad thing for Killington. It gives them exposure on a national broadcast network - Live (they better hope the weather cooperates). From a social/viral marketing perspective, this was a big FAIL. It really wasn't necessary to hype or build expectations prior to the official announcement - it totally led to, as bubba stated, over-hype and under-deliver. It's big for marketing, but for the ordinary "fans" of Killington on Facebook, this means close to nothing.

[rogman]

seriously? what did the other big contest (cant even remember the name of it) do for you? did it help improve your skiing or riding experience? didnt think so...

Like many things in marketing, the benefit is indirect. It will bring people to the area on a weekend that is pretty dead, and promote Killington nationwide. It is a chance to for the place to shine. Sure I'd rather have all the money go into infrastructure improvements and snow making, but history has shown that a good product with poor marketing will ultimately lose to an inferior product with great marketing. You have to take a long range view of event like this. The whole point is to draw people in that don't normally come to Killington. If a few regulars go somewhere else for the weekend, so what? This will attract new customers.

OK, I'll bite.

Multi-mountain events like these have existed for years. (This one is relatively new.)

Ski resorts have existed for years. (Killington is relatively old.)

Ski resorts have hosted multi-mountain events like these for years.

Please give me a list of ski resorts who have "shone" for more than two or three days at a time thanks to wildly expensive multi-mountain events like these.

Please also give me a list of resorts whose growth trajectory has been fundamentally altered by multi-mountain events like these (homegrown and/or legacy events don't count -- this ain't BMMC).

Please also list the stops on THIS Tour over the past two years AND last year's winners WITHOUT consulting the interweb. (Chances are real good that you're lying if you say you don't need Google to answer either question.)

Your premise is that these "wildly expensive" multi-mountain events are not cost effective marketing. You're wrong. Live coverage on NBC? That's impressive. Regardless, the people on this board aren't who this event is targeting. As for a resort that whose trajectory was forever changed by an event? Squaw Valley. And no, I don't expect people's perception of Killington to change due to this or anything else. It is a cumulative effect. They have to do something, Killington doesn't have Okemo's "legendary corduroy" to fall back on.

[JerseyGuy]

http://www.newschoolers.com/web/forums/ ... id/550827/

Fascinating. Over there, TWA is practically SkippySnow-ish...

I liked this (Facebook) statement from Mount Snow -- bolded text is mine:

So if you follow Alli Sports or Killington, you've probably heard that the Winter Dew Tour will not be returning to Mount Snow in 2011 and most likely ever.

The Winter Dew Tour insisted that the super pipe be featured with 22' walls as the Olympics decided to go bigger. The current location of our pipe would not allow such an easy task and we had been looking into the possibility of this for 2012.

We have bigger projects in the works namely two new lifts and new snowmaking projects scheduled for the summer of 2011 that will impact way more of our guests than an additional 4' of snow and four days of pro action.

Here is the official press release from Mount Snow.

Despite Two Record Setting Years, Winter Dew Tour Leaves Mount Snow

WEST DOVER, VT (July 19, 2010) – Alli, the Alliance of Action Sports, has notified Mount Snow that it will not return for a third season of the Winter Dew Tour.

Mount Snow has a contract with Alli to host the Tour through 2011, with an option for 2012. Alli states the reason for not returning for the final year of its contract is the need for a venue with a 22' superpipe for the 2011 event. Mount Snow’s 18’ superpipe had been used successfully during the previous two Winter Dew Tour events held at the resort in 2009 and 2010. Alli contends that a 22’ superpipe is vital to the Tour in order to attract pro-level athletes.

Over recent months the two entities have been discussing the move to a 22’ superpipe for the 2012 season. However, in order for Mount Snow to construct a pipe of that size it would require extensive earthwork, local and state permitting and a significant increase in additional man-made snow and man-hours to construct the pipe.

According to Mount Snow Director of Marketing, Greg Fisher, "a 22’ superpipe would get little use, other than during the Dew Tour itself. Our most popular pipe has 8-10’ walls and is better suited for the majority of skiers and riders who frequent Mount Snow. ” The location of the superpipe at Mount Snow is in the Carinthia Base Area and in order to build a 22’ pipe massive excavation work and permits would be required. Mount Snow created Carinthia Parks, the location of superpipe, in 2008 with the intention of providing a unique freestyle skiing and riding experience for all abilities and ages. The parks feature small to XL features with the recreational freestyle enthusiast in mind. The addition of a competition superpipe for a two-day event would be an inefficient use of park resources and would not benefit Mount Snow's core guests.

Mount Snow has plans to install two new lifts and a snowmaking water retention pond in the summer of 2011. "As much as we want the Dew Tour to come back to Mount Snow, we have to look at the big picture and focus on the lifts and snowmaking improvements. Our guests have been asking for these upgrades for years and they will be our top priority," said Kelly Pawlak, General Manager of Mount Snow.

Pretty much sums things up, doncha think?

[Bubba]

Geoff, you've talked about losing "critical mass", well, at some point, Killington lost "Critical MA", and people from the Boston area just stopped going because none of their friends were going their either. The ironic thing is, is that people who ski both, tend to prefer Killington, it's a far better mountain.

I've done the evaluation quite a few times. The 250" vs 125" thing and the terrain & surface that 250" makes possible is what always prevented me from changing mountains. In most other aspects, the two resorts are more similar than different. The value proposition of owning in Newry with a Boyne pass is certainly better than what Killington offers today.

So it's the snowfall and the mountain terrain and surface that keeps you at Killington. I'd say that's a pretty fair value proposition and you've decided which one is better....for you, at least.

[JerseyGuy]

Your premise is that these "wildly expensive" multi-mountain events are not cost effective marketing. You're wrong.

According to whom? You? Do you have anything to back up this statement, other than your own personal belief?

Live coverage on NBC? That's impressive.

Hey, you know what other up and coming sport gets live coverage on NBC? Motocross! Yes, motocross... Sport of the Future.

Lord Knows I'M impressed.

Regardless, the people on this board aren't who this event is targeting.

You're right. How much will the REAL "targets" of this event add to Killington's bottom line this next year? Or the year after that? Or the year after that, or the year after that? Or does Killington patiently wait until they get into their thirties and get jobs?

As for a resort that whose trajectory was forever changed by an event? Squaw Valley.

Wait -- hold on. You're not comparing the 2011 Winter Dew Tour to the 1960 Winter Olympics, are you? Please tell me that's not correct... besides, you're still not answering my question. I specifically asked about multi-mountain events like these. What other resorts hosted the 1960 Olympics?

And no, I don't expect people's perception of Killington to change due to this or anything else. It is a cumulative effect. They have to do something, Killington doesn't have Okemo's "legendary corduroy" to fall back on.

I love the "cumulative effect" argument. It's all part of a much larger plan, you see... one that small-minded myopic types can't see because it takes years and years and years to work. And, hell, if the Winter Dew Tour is a one-and-done event... nobody gets blamed for anything, because it was only a small part of a Bigger Marketing Picture!

[TWA]

http://www.newschoolers.com/web/forums/ ... id/550827/

Good work Sherlock, you found a thread I made on NS.