So what's next for Killington Resort?

[skiingsnow]

One more question I asked that I don't think anyone has addressed - is there a value to getting next year's improvement and pricing announcements out early, such as before the end of this season, or can some of it wait until June or July or even later?

They announced this seasons pricing and improvements on March 18, and I imagine they will do the same this March.

[Bubba]

One more question I asked that I don't think anyone has addressed - is there a value to getting next year's improvement and pricing announcements out early, such as before the end of this season, or can some of it wait until June or July or even later?

I figure most folks who buy the early pass, buy it either way. The improvement update is gonna get the folks off the fence that haven't made up their minds. If I were Killington, I wouldnt want them to get off the fence until discount days were over...

But what if you're trying to attract people BACK to Killington who left over the past few years for the Bush, Okemo, Sunday River or elsewhere? Or people who elected not to buy passes and start checking out other places on day tickets? Wouldn't you want to get their attention?

If they've changed their minds and want people back, that's logical. Last I heard, they are happy with the current skier load...

Actually Nyberg is on record as saying they want to grow, or expect to grow, about 5% per year or something like that once they get past the first couple of years of baselining and starting their on-mountain improvements.

[Stormchaser]

What we've heard from the mountain and what we've seen haven't always coincided. I'll stick with what they do, and take their words with a grain of salt.

[Geoff]

But what if you're trying to attract people BACK to Killington who left over the past few years for the Bush, Okemo, Sunday River or elsewhere? Or people who elected not to buy passes and start checking out other places on day tickets? Wouldn't you want to get their attention?

That's why you do the Boyne-style spring pass where you buy your 2009-2010 season pass in March and get to use it for the rest of the season. In addition, they had the Loon expansion and the Sunday River Chondola to hype....of course, Killington also has to announce a later closing date or a real expansion to get much interest.

We can see by casual inspection of the base lodges and parking lots on any given Saturday that Killington didn't have a whole lot of brand loyalty. If you didn't own real estate near the resort, you had a big incentive to start looking around at your other options once they shortened the season so Killington became 'just another ski area'. Boyne clearly benefitted from this with their Loon/Sunday River/Sugarloaf pass that also has real benefits elsewhere (Valle Nevado in Chile, Montana....). Okemo, Mount Snow, and Sugarbush grabbed Killington people. The Killington mayhem clearly turned off a huge number of day ticket people who will never come back. Killington certainly hasn't done anything with marketing and branding to appeal to those people.

[RENO]

I think the season pass prices need to keep creeping up. $50.00/year for the next few years. The Blackout Pass is very underpriced at the moment. At $650, what incentive is there to work in a program as a volunteer?

Not in my book? I think at about $700, it's high enough...

[rogman]

Passes are about right. Pushed much further, people will buy elsewhere, other than the core people with property here.

Although I think a single HS lift up the center of the Snowdon from the quad base makes the most sense, I expect what we'll see is the existing lifts replaced at some point. If you have a single lift for Snowdon, you can't move it too far up towards KBL, or you won't be able to access it from lower Chute. Last fall I talked to Selbo about Snowdon, and he said that the quad, as drawn in the village plans, was moved slightly different from the existing locale (further down slope towards Ramshead), and thus would be partially paid for by the village construction. It was subject to "negotiation". At a casual glance, it doesn't look it, but that is what he said. If so, then you won't see the quad replaced until the village is built.

I've heard from multiple unreliable sources that both the SRT and the Snowdon triple were slated for replacement by POWDR, but the order did not get in in time, so it was postponed. They have to do SRT very soon: they've created a problem for themselves by eliminating the crossover. All of the triples are date from the 70's, they need replacement. And let's not forget the Snowshed doubles. Or maybe we should...

[johnny the jibber]

poma supposedly has a contract to do something this summer. thats all i can say...

[skiingsnow]

Last fall I talked to Selbo about Snowdon, and he said that the quad, as drawn in the village plans, was moved slightly different from the existing locale (further down slope towards Ramshead), and thus would be partially paid for by the village construction. It was subject to "negotiation". At a casual glance, it doesn't look it, but that is what he said. If so, then you won't see the quad replaced until the village is built.

Nyberg also said that there were lifts that were going to be realigned.

[boston_e]

So, how would you restructure pricing, because you've hit on one of the key issues I asked about. Your point is that season pass pricing isn't rational and, between that and the price of the kids' program, Killington has driven families away. How would you restructure both pricing and program options? What should Killington charge for an adult pass, a kids' pass and a college pass? What price would make sense for a family and how would this compare, for example, to Sugarbush and Okemo? What kids' programs should be offered in addition to (or as a replacement for) the high priced program they have today?

Well, just look at almost every other resorts website in New England. For the most part, Killington's kids programs are more than twice the cost of any other mountains.... actually not just in New England, but in the entire country!

I don't know about race training programs etc, I have not looked into anythign like that.... I'm talking about the day programs where if you have a child you want to leave with an intructor and other kids to go out and have a fun day on the mountain, while you can get in some skiing yourself.

Sunday river has a "Tiny Turns" program, which is a full day of daycare, but during that day, they take your child out for a one hour private lesson (one instructor one child) for $85... all rentals etc included. Day care alone at Killington is $130.

At Sunday River... a full day group lesson for 3-6 year olds is $75 which includes lunch... add $10 if you need rentals. The equivalent at Killington is $180.

I know Killington has promoted the max of 3:1 ratio... but in my experience at SR, I've not experienced more than 5 or 6 kids to 1 instructor. IMO, I don't think the 3:1 ratio makes the day any more fun for the kids, than if there were 5 or 6 kids there.

Its crazy, but I own property in the Killington area, and don't go because of the kids pricing structure, instead we rent out our place on weekends etc... probablly to college kids etc who as mentioned above can get a season pass for less than the price of 2 kids lessons..... maybe thats the market Powdr is going after.

[Highway Star]

poma supposedly has a contract to do something this summer. thats all i can say...

OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG!!!!









(they've been hired to change the name of the Wobbly to the double deuce)

[spanky]

So, how would you restructure pricing, because you've hit on one of the key issues I asked about. Your point is that season pass pricing isn't rational and, between that and the price of the kids' program, Killington has driven families away. How would you restructure both pricing and program options? What should Killington charge for an adult pass, a kids' pass and a college pass? What price would make sense for a family and how would this compare, for example, to Sugarbush and Okemo? What kids' programs should be offered in addition to (or as a replacement for) the high priced program they have today?

Well, just look at almost every other resorts website in New England. For the most part, Killington's kids programs are more than twice the cost of any other mountains.... actually not just in New England, but in the entire country!

I don't know about race training programs etc, I have not looked into anythign like that.... I'm talking about the day programs where if you have a child you want to leave with an intructor and other kids to go out and have a fun day on the mountain, while you can get in some skiing yourself.

Sunday river has a "Tiny Turns" program, which is a full day of daycare, but during that day, they take your child out for a one hour private lesson (one instructor one child) for $85... all rentals etc included. Day care alone at Killington is $130.

At Sunday River... a full day group lesson for 3-6 year olds is $75 which includes lunch... add $10 if you need rentals. The equivalent at Killington is $180.

I know Killington has promoted the max of 3:1 ratio... but in my experience at SR, I've not experienced more than 5 or 6 kids to 1 instructor. IMO, I don't think the 3:1 ratio makes the day any more fun for the kids, than if there were 5 or 6 kids there.

Its crazy, but I own property in the Killington area, and don't go because of the kids pricing structure, instead we rent out our place on weekends etc... probablly to college kids etc who as mentioned above can get a season pass for less than the price of 2 kids lessons..... maybe thats the market Powdr is going after.

I'll chime in here on the kids pricing as well...

It's not that our family can't afford Killington's pricing for daycare and/or lessons, but when their pricing is so far out of line from what the rest of the market commands, it's just not a financially wise decision to spend the extra money for the same "service". I would think that our family is Killington's target demographic - we have two incomes, a budding family and, at one point, were seriously considering purchasing property at Killington. Heck, we were even excited about the new village construction opportunities.

We skied Killington when pass prices were $1000 without blinking an eye about the cost. We would be willing to purchase passes at that price again. But, to blatantly rip you off on childcare - no thanks, I'll take my family elsewhere. I'm sure we're not the only family making the decision to ski elsewhere based on principle and not finances.

[boston_e]

I'll chime in here on the kids pricing as well...

It's not that our family can't afford Killington's pricing for daycare and/or lessons, but when their pricing is so far out of line from what the rest of the market commands, it's just not a financially wise decision to spend the extra money for the same "service". I would think that our family is Killington's target demographic - we have two incomes, a budding family and, at one point, were seriously considering purchasing property at Killington. Heck, we were even excited about the new village construction opportunities.

We skied Killington when pass prices were $1000 without blinking an eye about the cost. We would be willing to purchase passes at that price again. But, to blatantly rip you off on childcare - no thanks, I'll take my family elsewhere. I'm sure we're not the only family making the decision to ski elsewhere based on principle and not finances.

I think that's a pretty good way to put it... we are in the same situation... two incomes, new family (likely done at 2 kids), both had season passes from when it was $1150 for an "all east pass" straight through the all for one pass situation.

Could I spend extra money for the same "service"? Sure. Will I? No way. Espically when I think about it in terms of "I could get 2 weekends somewhere else for the price of 1 at Killington.

I still have the express card, and have done some single days at Killington since the start of the new regime. My wife and kids have not been to Killington once. (Entirely due to the kids program pricing.)

And you are right... I know for a fact there are other family's that we are friendly with who feel the same way (and are speaking with their wallets by taking their business elsewhere).

[tyrolean_skier]

Well, just look at almost every other resorts website in New England. For the most part, Killington's kids programs are more than twice the cost of any other mountains.... actually not just in New England, but in the entire country!

I don't know about race training programs etc, I have not looked into anything like that.... I'm talking about the day programs where if you have a child you want to leave with an intructor and other kids to go out and have a fun day on the mountain, while you can get in some skiing yourself.

Sunday river has a "Tiny Turns" program, which is a full day of daycare, but during that day, they take your child out for a one hour private lesson (one instructor one child) for $85... all rentals etc included. Day care alone at Killington is $130.

At Sunday River... a full day group lesson for 3-6 year olds is $75 which includes lunch... add $10 if you need rentals. The equivalent at Killington is $180.

I know Killington has promoted the max of 3:1 ratio... but in my experience at SR, I've not experienced more than 5 or 6 kids to 1 instructor. IMO, I don't think the 3:1 ratio makes the day any more fun for the kids, than if there were 5 or 6 kids there.

Its crazy, but I own property in the Killington area, and don't go because of the kids pricing structure, instead we rent out our place on weekends etc... probablly to college kids etc who as mentioned above can get a season pass for less than the price of 2 kids lessons..... maybe thats the market Powdr is going after.

I believe that Powdr forced KSC to change their programs so that they are now less attractive and the club has lost some members due to the increased costs. Last year there was a 2-full day program starting at 8:30 AM and ending at 3 PM with a one hour lunch that cost around $800 for children 6-8. That program no longer exists and in it's place there is now a program that costs similar but it runs from 10 AM - 2:30 PM with one hour lunch on Saturday and on Sunday it's a half day program starting at 9 AM and ending at 12 PM. My daughter was in the latter program until her coach told us that she needed to be moved to the B team and that is costing us $500 more.

[realreddy]

So, how would you restructure pricing, because you've hit on one of the key issues I asked about. Your point is that season pass pricing isn't rational and, between that and the price of the kids' program, Killington has driven families away. How would you restructure both pricing and program options? What should Killington charge for an adult pass, a kids' pass and a college pass? What price would make sense for a family and how would this compare, for example, to Sugarbush and Okemo? What kids' programs should be offered in addition to (or as a replacement for) the high priced program they have today?

Well, just look at almost every other resorts website in New England. For the most part, Killington's kids programs are more than twice the cost of any other mountains.... actually not just in New England, but in the entire country!

I don't know about race training programs etc, I have not looked into anythign like that.... I'm talking about the day programs where if you have a child you want to leave with an intructor and other kids to go out and have a fun day on the mountain, while you can get in some skiing yourself.

Sunday river has a "Tiny Turns" program, which is a full day of daycare, but during that day, they take your child out for a one hour private lesson (one instructor one child) for $85... all rentals etc included. Day care alone at Killington is $130.

At Sunday River... a full day group lesson for 3-6 year olds is $75 which includes lunch... add $10 if you need rentals. The equivalent at Killington is $180.

I know Killington has promoted the max of 3:1 ratio... but in my experience at SR, I've not experienced more than 5 or 6 kids to 1 instructor. IMO, I don't think the 3:1 ratio makes the day any more fun for the kids, than if there were 5 or 6 kids there.

Its crazy, but I own property in the Killington area, and don't go because of the kids pricing structure, instead we rent out our place on weekends etc... probablly to college kids etc who as mentioned above can get a season pass for less than the price of 2 kids lessons..... maybe thats the market Powdr is going after.

I'll chime in here on the kids pricing as well...

It's not that our family can't afford Killington's pricing for daycare and/or lessons, but when their pricing is so far out of line from what the rest of the market commands, it's just not a financially wise decision to spend the extra money for the same "service". I would think that our family is Killington's target demographic - we have two incomes, a budding family and, at one point, were seriously considering purchasing property at Killington. Heck, we were even excited about the new village construction opportunities.

We skied Killington when pass prices were $1000 without blinking an eye about the cost. We would be willing to purchase passes at that price again. But, to blatantly rip you off on childcare - no thanks, I'll take my family elsewhere. I'm sure we're not the only family making the decision to ski elsewhere based on principle and not finances.

I agree 100% with you. If I didn't own a place at Killington I would certainly not ski here with my Family. I feel Killington is saying F*ck you every time I enroll my 2 kids in the mini stars program.
Is that the reaction they want the DAd to have each time they visit? Yeah that will build brand loyalty. Idiots!!!!!

[Bubba]

Keep those thoughts coming. I was told this afternoon that they've taken note of this thread and the things people are saying about pricing and other ideas being posted.