It's Time To End This Malarkey

[hillbangin]

Ask anybody in 1939 how well treaties work.

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[easyrider16]

Uh huh. I guess you think we shouldn't sign any treaties in the future, huh? This isn't even a serious conversation anymore.

[hillbangin]

Uh huh. I guess you think we shouldn't sign any treaties in the future, huh? This isn't even a serious conversation anymore.

Doing treaties that are not followed from Day 1 is not serious. You are correct.

See any treaty China has ever signed.



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[easyrider16]

I mean if you want to talk about somebody not following treaties, you should start with Trump. He violated WTO rules with his nonsense trade wars.

If Trump were smarter, he would have used the same WTO rules to go after China's alleged violations, and then he might have been in a better position to impose sanctions with the cooperation of other countries instead of his nonsensical unilateral approach. Or, maybe he should have just signed on to the TPP that Obama negotiated which actually would have addressed many of the issues that Trump complains about with China. Instead, he started a trade war that has literally accomplished nothing except to diminish our standing with the rest of the free world.

But you know, just keep drinking the kool aid, there's no need to look at the facts as they are in the real world.

[hillbangin]

I mean if you want to talk about somebody not following treaties, you should start with Trump. He violated WTO rules with his nonsense trade wars.

If Trump were smarter, he would have used the same WTO rules to go after China's alleged violations, and then he might have been in a better position to impose sanctions with the cooperation of other countries instead of his nonsensical unilateral approach. Or, maybe he should have just signed on to the TPP that Obama negotiated which actually would have addressed many of the issues that Trump complains about with China. Instead, he started a trade war that has literally accomplished nothing except to diminish our standing with the rest of the free world.

But you know, just keep drinking the kool aid, there's no need to look at the facts as they are in the real world.

You're assuming China follows the rules.

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[easyrider16]

Um, nope, I'm not, actually. I'm saying that first you need to impose some rules on them, then you can get the international community's cooperation in enforcing them. Doing what Trump has done has accomplished nothing. Do you not see that? He has gotten literally no result in nearly four years of trying. He has failed. He is a failure.

[hillbangin]

Um, nope, I'm not, actually. I'm saying that first you need to impose some rules on them, then you can get the international community's cooperation in enforcing them. Doing what Trump has done has accomplished nothing. Do you not see that? He has gotten literally no result in nearly four years of trying. He has failed. He is a failure.

Lots of manufacturing coming back because he waived his magic wand.

And the Covid is bringing more of it back.

China bad. USA good.



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[easyrider16]

Or, maybe you're still just drinking the kool aid:

The manufacturing industry has been in a steady decline for the past two decades. A strong US dollar in the late 1990s made foreign goods cheaper just as costs rose, demand dried up and trade deals opened up global competition. Domestic manufacturing firms cut costs, and that often meant finding cheap labor overseas.

That's when, according to Susan Houseman, Director of Research at Upjohn Institute, manufacturing jobs fell off a cliff.
"Before the early 2000s, any decline always bounced back," Houseman said. "This is the first time it kept going down."

Even with the Trump administration's tariffs and heated rhetoric, that trend is not course-correcting, says Robert Scott, director of Trade and Manufacturing Policy Research at the Economic Policy Institute.

"Frankly, Trump is bad for manufacturing. Since he took office, the deficit in goods is up 15%," according to Scott. A trade deficit occurs when a country buys more products then it sells.

Scott says that Trump's trade deals -- the USMCA and the "phase one" deal with China -- fail to address the structural issues that fix long-term trade imbalances, and therefore, help workers.

"His policies haven't helped change anything -- they keep the status quo."

https://www.cnn.com/2020/02/08/economy/ ... index.html

[hillbangin]

Or, maybe you're still just drinking the kool aid:

The manufacturing industry has been in a steady decline for the past two decades. A strong US dollar in the late 1990s made foreign goods cheaper just as costs rose, demand dried up and trade deals opened up global competition. Domestic manufacturing firms cut costs, and that often meant finding cheap labor overseas.

That's when, according to Susan Houseman, Director of Research at Upjohn Institute, manufacturing jobs fell off a cliff.
"Before the early 2000s, any decline always bounced back," Houseman said. "This is the first time it kept going down."

Even with the Trump administration's tariffs and heated rhetoric, that trend is not course-correcting, says Robert Scott, director of Trade and Manufacturing Policy Research at the Economic Policy Institute.

"Frankly, Trump is bad for manufacturing. Since he took office, the deficit in goods is up 15%," according to Scott. A trade deficit occurs when a country buys more products then it sells.

Scott says that Trump's trade deals -- the USMCA and the "phase one" deal with China -- fail to address the structural issues that fix long-term trade imbalances, and therefore, help workers.

"His policies haven't helped change anything -- they keep the status quo."

https://www.cnn.com/2020/02/08/economy/ ... index.html

Your quoting CNN?

Brutal......

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[easyrider16]

There you go, just deny the facts when presented. No need to actually consider them.

Never mind that there are plenty of other sources for this information:
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/09/1 ... ord-415588
https://www.epi.org/publication/reshori ... ring-jobs/
https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/20 ... 249422002/
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/trumps-s ... 49515.html
https://washingtonmonthly.com/2020/09/2 ... ata-shows/

But I bet that kool aid sure is tasty.

[XtremeJibber2001]

Um, nope, I'm not, actually. I'm saying that first you need to impose some rules on them, then you can get the international community's cooperation in enforcing them. Doing what Trump has done has accomplished nothing. Do you not see that? He has gotten literally no result in nearly four years of trying. He has failed. He is a failure.

Lots of manufacturing coming back because he waived his magic wand.

And the Covid is bringing more of it back.

China bad. USA good.

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I don't know if manufacturing is coming back from China to the USA or not, but overall manufacturing in the USA is down ... even before COVID.

A Bureau of Labor Statistics analysis released Sept. 1 said that even prepandemic, the sector was on track to lose nearly 450,000 workers by 2029, the most of any area of the economy. At the same time, output has made a notable recovery due to increased automation, with the industrial production index bouncing back to almost 98 in July — less than 10 points down from February.

Straight from the horses mouth
https://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/ecopro.pdf

[easyrider16]

I mean if you listen to what Trump says instead of considering what he actually does, I can see why you'd think he had a good record on manufacturing.

[hillbangin]

Wow. I didnt know that factories have been shutting down for the last 60 years?

I grew up in a factory city and wondered what was going on.

Think it has more to do with automation than cheap labor at this point?

Biden saved the automotive industry supposedly while the automotive industry was going to Mexico on the NAFTA train.

Another good trade deal renegotiated by the bad orange man?

It's going to take more than 3 years to fix all this crap that's been going on since the 60s.

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[XtremeJibber2001]

Wow. I didnt know that factories have been shutting down for the last 60 years?

I grew up in a factory city and wondered what was going on.

Think it has more to do with automation than cheap labor at this point?

Biden saved the automotive industry supposedly while the automotive industry was going to Mexico on the NAFTA train.

Another good trade deal renegotiated by the bad orange man?

It's going to take more than 3 years to fix all this crap that's been going on since the 60s.

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What's your premise? I thought it was 'Trump brought back manufacturing jobs from China', but now it's not clear. Maybe you can share a link demonstrating Trump did bring manufacturing jobs from China? Trump's pledge, consistently, has always been to restore manufacturing in the United States. I don't think this pledge has been met by any stretch of the imagination.

[easyrider16]

I'll acknowledge that Trump did improve NAFTA. However, if you didn't like the original NAFTA, you really shouldn't like what Trump renegotiated because it's really not all that different from what was already in place. The changes he got were pretty minor.

You're kind of all over the place now. Earlier you were talking about treaties being useless and now you're touting a treaty that Trump renegotiated. This is far afield from the original point that Trump has damaged the U.S. position as leader of the free world. The NAFTA deal is actually a good illustration of that point. Trump's heavy-handed tactics certainly offended Canada and will make working with them in the future more difficult.

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