Partial minutes of K Board of Selectmen 6/25 meeting

[MarkinNY]

h. Update on Powdr/SP Land Company Meetings
This was put on the Agenda to give the Board the opportunity to discuss it after the big meeting
at the Library. Dave gave the Board a copy of the letter that was submitted to the Board at that meeting regarding the lifetime pass issue. Dave noted that he got a call today from the Rutland Herald asking about the layoffs which occurred today. Mike was concerned with the symbiotic tone and it doesn’t sound to him that they care about the community and he thinks the Economic Growth Initiative is important. Norm said he wouldn’t read too much into the layoffs and he doesn’t think it unreasonable that they would take a close look at the staff; it’s probably healthy although he’s concerned with the community impact of course. Mike stated that it takes a lot of people to run the mountain and he’s curious to see if they will fill the positions with foreigners. Norm reminded that both Selbo and Nyberg have talked about the fact that capital programs will be funded out of the profits of the business. He said there are several ways to do this: you can grow volume and revenue and you can cut costs. He thinks they’re trying to do both and the community needs to do what it needs to do. Jim said the layoffs today were known. Mike said he hasn’t seen one give yet from Powdr, it’s been take, take, take. Jim pointed out that ASC may have been derelict in not laying off some top management. Mike didn’t agree.
7 | P a g e
Bernie Rome said it appears that the Powdr strategy is not going to prove to be right. You can’t take an area like this that was a successful middle market area and turn it into a Stratton or Okemo because they’re already here and we don’t have the character or a town. He thinks they’re making very poor moves regarding their outlook. It looks like they plan to milk the thing and what they put back will be only enough to survive. They appear to not be community oriented. He thinks the prognosis is questionable.
Steve Selbo said the Town is not giving anybody a chance. He disagreed with Bernie; everybody is being very short sighted on the list of opportunities and not being community minded. He said they are taking care of the kids, contrary to what was said. He thought the conversation was getting out of hand. Six months ago he was asked to get rid of ASC. He found someone that knows how to do business and who doesn’t want to throw out a bunch of promises. Jim defended Chris Nyberg in that after being here only 2 weeks he met with both
Rutland and Woodstock Superintendents and then showed everybody what the school program
Is; which is extremely similar to what it’s always been.
Jim said if Powdr was guilty of anything, the marketing strategy could have been much better with demonstrated studies. Mike said Powdr would like to reduce skier days and Steve replied that is 100% wrong. Bernie reminded him that Chris said they don’t care about share market, they only care about yield. Dave added that he also said the volume is going to go down. Steve said it is not the goal and he was very specific – in the short term skier visits may go down and
Steve thinks the reaction is unfair.
Mike pressed the point that contractors won’t be hired back and Steve said they’re running a business. But Mike pointed out that we’re running a community that used to do business with
the mountain and at one time the mountain brought everyone here. Steve replied that Powdr
doesn’t know if it will work or not either; we all have to take our chances with this new ship
and he thinks we have the right group in here with people who have the possibility of a bright
future. Norm said he has worked in companies in turn-around situations and the best option is to make tough decisions very quickly and Powdr’s pattern in the last 30 days indicates they’re doing that. They have to do it otherwise the same things continue being done but
there needs to be a positive side. The community is waiting for the things that will grow the resort and improve things and there needs to be communication on this. Steve said he is
very concerned about it too. Powdr is not big on hiring a consultant to tell them the $329 season pass didn’t work. They believe that ASC was making a very big mistake the last 5 years. Bernie said when they canceled the lifetime pass, in the second year there were blackout days and that’s nickel & diming. If they’re thinking that narrowly, there’s going to be a problem with the big picture. Steve replied we should remember that the only letter we have was from Allen Wilson. We haven’t seen the Powdr response yet.

[Mister Moose]

Steve replied we should remember that the only letter we have was from Allen Wilson. We haven’t seen the Powdr response yet.

Under what scenario would Allen Wilson have written that letter on his own, and not at the direction of the purchasers (SP/POWDR)???

This statement lacks credibility.

[the Disemboweler]

h. Update on Powdr/SP Land Company Meetings
This was put on the Agenda to give the Board the opportunity to discuss it after the big meeting
at the Library. Dave gave the Board a copy of the letter that was submitted to the Board at that meeting regarding the lifetime pass issue. Dave noted that he got a call today from the Rutland Herald asking about the layoffs which occurred today. Mike was concerned with the symbiotic tone and it doesn’t sound to him that they care about the community and he thinks the Economic Growth Initiative is important. Norm said he wouldn’t read too much into the layoffs and he doesn’t think it unreasonable that they would take a close look at the staff; it’s probably healthy although he’s concerned with the community impact of course. Mike stated that it takes a lot of people to run the mountain and he’s curious to see if they will fill the positions with foreigners. Norm reminded that both Selbo and Nyberg have talked about the fact that capital programs will be funded out of the profits of the business. He said there are several ways to do this: you can grow volume and revenue and you can cut costs. He thinks they’re trying to do both and the community needs to do what it needs to do. Jim said the layoffs today were known. Mike said he hasn’t seen one give yet from Powdr, it’s been take, take, take. Jim pointed out that ASC may have been derelict in not laying off some top management. Mike didn’t agree.
7 | P a g e
Bernie Rome said it appears that the Powdr strategy is not going to prove to be right. You can’t take an area like this that was a successful middle market area and turn it into a Stratton or Okemo because they’re already here and we don’t have the character or a town. He thinks they’re making very poor moves regarding their outlook. It looks like they plan to milk the thing and what they put back will be only enough to survive. They appear to not be community oriented. He thinks the prognosis is questionable.
Steve Selbo said the Town is not giving anybody a chance. He disagreed with Bernie; everybody is being very short sighted on the list of opportunities and not being community minded. He said they are taking care of the kids, contrary to what was said. He thought the conversation was getting out of hand. Six months ago he was asked to get rid of ASC. He found someone that knows how to do business and who doesn’t want to throw out a bunch of promises. Jim defended Chris Nyberg in that after being here only 2 weeks he met with both
Rutland and Woodstock Superintendents and then showed everybody what the school program
Is; which is extremely similar to what it’s always been.
Jim said if Powdr was guilty of anything, the marketing strategy could have been much better with demonstrated studies. Mike said Powdr would like to reduce skier days and Steve replied that is 100% wrong. Bernie reminded him that Chris said they don’t care about share market, they only care about yield. Dave added that he also said the volume is going to go down. Steve said it is not the goal and he was very specific – in the short term skier visits may go down and
Steve thinks the reaction is unfair.
Mike pressed the point that contractors won’t be hired back and Steve said they’re running a business. But Mike pointed out that we’re running a community that used to do business with
the mountain and at one time the mountain brought everyone here. Steve replied that Powdr
doesn’t know if it will work or not either; we all have to take our chances with this new ship
and he thinks we have the right group in here with people who have the possibility of a bright
future. Norm said he has worked in companies in turn-around situations and the best option is to make tough decisions very quickly and Powdr’s pattern in the last 30 days indicates they’re doing that. They have to do it otherwise the same things continue being done but
there needs to be a positive side. The community is waiting for the things that will grow the resort and improve things and there needs to be communication on this. Steve said he is
very concerned about it too. Powdr is not big on hiring a consultant to tell them the $329 season pass didn’t work. They believe that ASC was making a very big mistake the last 5 years. Bernie said when they canceled the lifetime pass, in the second year there were blackout days and that’s nickel & diming. If they’re thinking that narrowly, there’s going to be a problem with the big picture. Steve replied we should remember that the only letter we have was from Allen Wilson. We haven’t seen the Powdr response yet.

YIKES!!!!

[newpylong]

These guys have made so many friends!

[da Pimp]

Geez Louise, is this all that Selbo can say to direct questions of legitimate concern? If he thinks the community is taking things the wrong way, HE'S RIGHT. Based on their clear direct statements, the huge majority of people seem to be deriving the same meaning, intentions, and position on the policies of POWDR. It looks to me that K/PODWR is now looking to weasel and squirm out of the darkness that they have created.

If K town has it all wrong, well then what did this guy say to correct the situations? NOTHING. The opportunity was right there to educate the town on what POWDR REALLY MEANS TO DO, but nothing factual was offered.

I see a lot of major issues in the short and medium term. The village starting versus non-village real estate first, the lifetime pass screwing, the lousy season pass program, the layoffs, the shortened season, no fixing the broken things, dumping experienced patrollers, Pico doom & gloom, and absolutely ZERO communications on snowmaking, not fixing the shitty unreliable lift operations (they call them reliable), and I could go on and on. As someone else recently posted, they seem to be really distancing themselves from the community, like they really think they don't need public goodwill.

Well, dammit, they need my out of state dollars and the local dollars as well but if they try to make it a painfull, frustrating and too expensive a process to ski Killington, then the only words from my mouth all season will be to tell my friends and local 300 person ski club to ski at Okemo, Sugarbush, Mt. Snow. Every holiday last season seemd to be lacking in attendance, lots of unused lift capacity except for the K1 line, so what do they do - make every single holiday blacked out. Obviously, they know that a lot of people have the time to ski on holidays so they want to gag us for seventy something bucks every day. We get the snowdon stop & go triple, K1 big line, parking far away, beat lodges, and I am sure about this one - we can expect paper thin trail bases, lifties with no english, and screwed up lift service. How do you grow a business back out of the cellar? Do the opposite of POWDR and you should be on target.

Based on advertised biographies citing the outdoors and skiing background of Mr. Cummins, I was confident that our favorite natural resource (Killington, leased from the taxpayers) would once again be returned to what it can be and more. I knew it would take time for some things like large capital and village work and getting and properly training the right personnel, but with someone at the helm with a personal and skilled interest in winter mountain activity I figured the ship would be following the captain.

So far I see nothing but stupid statements, total lack of planning, zero knowledge of what they just bought, and corporate greed that now represents a facade for the solitary playboy face of Cummins.

Mt. Snow seems to be doing it right, in just a short time, and I am sure the Muellers are just rolling in laughter at this half-assed attempt at new ownership. They knew what to do a long time ago and created the product that allows them to charge market share while making most everyone happy. I always thought the Muellers did not understand or desire the right things, but recently I have turned around to really respect their operation and decisions that they have made. You just can't argue with success, you can only play a fantasy ski area game.

We are all ready to go on the POWDR warpath in Connecticut. I imagine it's like that across New England because I haven't talked to a single soul with a positive opinion about Killington.

da pimp

P.S. I was the one who warned zoners to be careful of what you wish for when we all prayed for ASC to go away. As bad as ASC was, I felt that the potential for worse was there. And it is here now.

[Bling Skier]

Ha-Ha Too Funy!
"you can grow volume and revenue and you can cut costs. He thinks they’re trying to do both and the community needs to do what it needs to do. Jim said the layoffs today were known. Mike said he hasn’t seen one give yet from Powdr, it’s been take, take, take."

as they say in texas..YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE-HAW!

[newpylong]

lol bling.

I agree on the Muellers. I don't care for their mountains but they provide one hell of a product, and they run a class act operation from the visits I have made. They can only benefit from this debacle that seems to be shaping too.

[Snowjob]

Didn't Bernie Rome build what is now the Red Roof Inn only to have it foreclosed on by the banks?

[Finn]

same old deal observe first before you change something..if it's not broke don't make it so.
Laying off people that know how to do certain things is not smart.

From a Human Resources standpoint, the new hires will be require training and spending more money to get them up to speed.
Many companies buy others, then lay the employees off, let them re-apply again with watered down benefits and low pay. Many people moved to K for a life style change from the big cities-they didn't earn the same wages but deserve to earn a lving as well.
Recently while at a HR meeting I heard someone say we really don't want to hire US citizens as they want more $$ and good benefits, where as H-1B visa people will work at whatever wage we give them.

I would watch the new group carefully, ASC may have had it faults but the workers were the losers. Upper mangemenat made way too much money. I hope that the town of Killington is cautios with the new company.

I know many people that got laid off and they weren't making big money.

[Geoff]

Didn't Bernie Rome build what is now the Red Roof Inn only to have it foreclosed on by the banks?

He built it as a campus for Green Mountain College. They ended up abandoning their commitment. With no revenue stream other than renting it out as dorms to Killington for the foreign student workers, it was hopeless.

Bernie Rome also started the original Ski Shack and that small empire at the bottom of the access road. A bunch of that got auctioned off a few years ago, too.

[millerm277]

Looks like Powdr is making lots of friends, I can't wait for the village permitting process to start....

Amazing that they are mad about our reactions to what they've done, yet they are doing nothing to change our minds.

[ace]

Reading the Selectmen Board minutes carefully, you see the whole picture. Mike, fantastic community guy and sports enthusiast, vocalizes the frustration anyone of that emotion is feeling. Norm, a more grounded numbers guy, understands the financial motivations of decisions being made. And Steve Selbo basically lays it out saying, hey, you all asked me to get rid of ASC, and I did; the POWDR folks were the best group that came forward, so here we are.

And why are we where we are:

Skiing in the east is permanently disadvantaged in terms of skier days by what seems to be consistently more challenging weather vagaries, and by the cheap and available air flights to ski areas out west, where it’s more likely going to be warmer with more wide open, less crowded slopes, and where folks would rather go as they only ski a week or two when the kids can get off.

Time back it was conceivable to build a ski area in the East that could attract enough people to be a profitable enterprise from skier-based revenues, but the realities of an uncertain revenue stream vs high fixed costs meant for an inconsistent business. And then the 25 year bull market began in the early 80’s a magical time of low interest rates and soaring stock markets, which meant excess monies to spend which meant second homes, and ski areas found another and much more lucrative way to finance themselves.

At the K, we did at least benefit from the earlier model and got mostly-awesome terrain and lift expansion. But the Less Otten approach of ski focus also carried with it some risk, even though his financial model is the benchmark for all of modern finance, ie massive borrowings that can be supported by the cash flows of the business and, by deducting my borrowed interest, I can print some good earnings and drive my stock price higher – which is my goal as I own most of it. Unfortunately for some reason Les Otten could not or did not borrow floating-rate money, and so when the weather turned and air travel became easier he was forced to seek a bailout and then you’re in with the loan sharks for good.

High interest and other fixed costs, bad weather, and the allure of out-west skiing can even make a loan shark squirm, and so they sell off what’s valuable, which is the developable land at K, and hence the real estate investor SP Land becomes the new owner. Their investment plan gets blown up when their chosen developer has to leave the project and their partner in ASC looks for better risk reward ventures than ski areas.

SP Land has to bring in an experienced ski area operator to help realize their investment goal and POWDR takes the bite. POWDR has to make its money mainly by running the area and so it has very few options other than trying to establish some sound financial footing and then go from there. Maybe they approach it all a bit too dispassionately, but in today’s world, all benefits of capitalism are designed to accrue to the stake and shareholders of an enterprise, which means a fanatic devotion to cost cutting.

And anyway the world has changed. We’ve seen the complete transformation of the sport of skiing, which has gone from a vision of striving to improve my technique and step up terrain to challenge myself and hope I don’t get my ass kicked, to the synthetic and easy world where folks demand entertainment ie build me something – parks and funny jumps and man made bump runs – and where it’s all about short skis, and terrain that I can master without too much technique or exhaustion, and snowboarding – 1 part going down the mountain and 7 parts sitting on the mountain talking to my friends.. Where’s the biggest growth in the sport – indoors!

POWDR knows reality and as far as K goes I think they understand the need for at the very least the best conditions they can manufacture as they have the competition beat on terrain and length of season (everyone else has less running early and late season and that is a fact) and proximity. The community stuff will have to work its way in down the road, and so Selbo’s hoping for the best, and so should we all.

[Dr. NO]

"POWDR knows reality and as far as K goes I think they understand the need for at the very least the best conditions they can manufacture as they have the competition beat on terrain and length of season (everyone else has less running early and late season and that is a fact) and proximity. The community stuff will have to work its way in down the road, and so Selbo’s hoping for the best, and so should we all."

USED to have length of season. Everyone is open by mid November or Thanksgiving and closes early to mid April if conditions permit. POWDR has already announced this as the plan. As for Proximity, Snow, Stratton, Bromely, Magic and P-okemo-N are all closer to NYC than Killington. Change the character of Killington and the extra distance to Sugarbush, Stowe and Jay become insignificant as does Sunday River and Sugarloaf when traveling from the Boston metro area.

[Highway Star]

Reading the Selectmen Board minutes carefully, you see the whole picture. Mike, fantastic community guy and sports enthusiast, vocalizes the frustration anyone of that emotion is feeling. Norm, a more grounded numbers guy, understands the financial motivations of decisions being made. And Steve Selbo basically lays it out saying, hey, you all asked me to get rid of ASC, and I did; the POWDR folks were the best group that came forward, so here we are.

And why are we where we are:

Skiing in the east is permanently disadvantaged in terms of skier days by what seems to be consistently more challenging weather vagaries, and by the cheap and available air flights to ski areas out west, where it’s more likely going to be warmer with more wide open, less crowded slopes, and where folks would rather go as they only ski a week or two when the kids can get off.

Time back it was conceivable to build a ski area in the East that could attract enough people to be a profitable enterprise from skier-based revenues, but the realities of an uncertain revenue stream vs high fixed costs meant for an inconsistent business. And then the 25 year bull market began in the early 80’s a magical time of low interest rates and soaring stock markets, which meant excess monies to spend which meant second homes, and ski areas found another and much more lucrative way to finance themselves.

At the K, we did at least benefit from the earlier model and got mostly-awesome terrain and lift expansion. But the Less Otten approach of ski focus also carried with it some risk, even though his financial model is the benchmark for all of modern finance, ie massive borrowings that can be supported by the cash flows of the business and, by deducting my borrowed interest, I can print some good earnings and drive my stock price higher – which is my goal as I own most of it. Unfortunately for some reason Les Otten could not or did not borrow floating-rate money, and so when the weather turned and air travel became easier he was forced to seek a bailout and then you’re in with the loan sharks for good.

High interest and other fixed costs, bad weather, and the allure of out-west skiing can even make a loan shark squirm, and so they sell off what’s valuable, which is the developable land at K, and hence the real estate investor SP Land becomes the new owner. Their investment plan gets blown up when their chosen developer has to leave the project and their partner in ASC looks for better risk reward ventures than ski areas.

SP Land has to bring in an experienced ski area operator to help realize their investment goal and POWDR takes the bite. POWDR has to make its money mainly by running the area and so it has very few options other than trying to establish some sound financial footing and then go from there. Maybe they approach it all a bit too dispassionately, but in today’s world, all benefits of capitalism are designed to accrue to the stake and shareholders of an enterprise, which means a fanatic devotion to cost cutting.

And anyway the world has changed. We’ve seen the complete transformation of the sport of skiing, which has gone from a vision of striving to improve my technique and step up terrain to challenge myself and hope I don’t get my ass kicked, to the synthetic and easy world where folks demand entertainment ie build me something – parks and funny jumps and man made bump runs – and where it’s all about short skis, and terrain that I can master without too much technique or exhaustion, and snowboarding – 1 part going down the mountain and 7 parts sitting on the mountain talking to my friends.. Where’s the biggest growth in the sport – indoors!

POWDR knows reality and as far as K goes I think they understand the need for at the very least the best conditions they can manufacture as they have the competition beat on terrain and length of season (everyone else has less running early and late season and that is a fact) and proximity. The community stuff will have to work its way in down the road, and so Selbo’s hoping for the best, and so should we all.

Ace.......while your posts are always interesting, your lack of vision is shocking.

People don't actually ski anymore??? Horse sh*t. You're just skiing at the wrong places that have sold their souls to the lowest common denominator. There are still plenty of places from NJ/PA all the way up to northern new england that attract serious skiers and snowboarders. Not everyone can afford to fly out west, and some of us like to ski almost every weekend during the ski season.

Short skis suck.....so do the people who ski them. Fat, longer, rockered skis are here and they are driving the market, east and west. They make almost everyone into superman on skis....previously unthinkable terrain and snow becomes very skiable. The hunger for more challenging and interesting terrain will only grow in the future, across the entire industry. There will be an even greater divide between shopping mall style resorts with easy terrain, and more challenging ones that attract real skiers....the most successful resorts will appeal to both sides of the market, without offending either. Just look at Stowe, Vail, or Whistler.

Skiing operations can't be profitable? Again, more horse sh*t. If you have the wrong strategy, of course you're not going to be profitable. But if you do have the right strategy, you can be very successful. Just look at Peak Resorts, Berkshire East, and many many others who are still alive and kicking without real estate after the ASC Dino has gone extinct. Even all the major players have sustainable skiing operations....real estate is is just icing on the cake for them. Fundamentally, you have to have a quality skiing product that is sustainable and competes well in the market to draw people in. Real estate comes after, not before that.

So, the reality is that the top end of the destination resort market has been almost completely lost to the west, with a few exceptions for Stowe, Stratton, etc. Who's that leave you to go after? The middle and low end destination market, which Killington has always been a master of.....cheap weeks of skiing and lodging, bargain 3-day weekends, package deals out the wazzo. If they somehow think they are going take this core market and go more upscale and pricer with it......they are high on crack. People will leave and go to Okemo and Stratton or drive a little further to Stowe or SB. They have little wiggle room in that market segment, without massive investment and 5+ years of serious improvements.

Then you get into your passholder/bargin ticket buyer/real estate buyer. Notice how I lumped them all together??? It's because it's the same damn market segment. While there may be a subset of "trophy home" buyers out there who barely ski and just want a nice house in the mountains, that's a extremely tiny group - and they aren't buying at Killington, because Killington can't compete in the destination market, as discussed above. No, most of the people buying real estate are simply normal people who need a place to stay when they go skiing.....it really is that damn simple. These people may ski 15 days at their home resort, or 50+, or anywhere between. But they all got to be home buyers after skiing at a resort for several years, buying passes and/or discount tickets the whole time, while renting a ski house or staying at inns or motels.

Killington isn't the same as a shiny new, massive golf course community down in Florida. People aren't going to materialize out of thin air with money dripping out of their asses with which to buy property. Dream on. SP Land and Steve Selbo have made a major mis-calculation here - they picked the resort operator with a proven national record of NOT running resorts in a manner that is attractive to the most important segment of the market for the real estate developer. POWDR is basicly a resort slum lord - not who you want at the helm it you ever want construct or sell a single damn square foot of real estate. Anybody else - Intrawest, Vail Resorts, Peak, Boyne, etc would have stepped in and started heading in the right direction with the community, the pass holders, and positve changes and news about the mountain operation. Not POWDR, they just want to pull as much money out as they can, because they seem to not have any clue about doing it right. Talk about blowing it.

[Bling Skier]

Reading the Selectmen Board minutes carefully, you see the whole picture. Mike, fantastic community guy and sports enthusiast, vocalizes the frustration anyone of that emotion is feeling. Norm, a more grounded numbers guy, understands the financial motivations of decisions being made. And Steve Selbo basically lays it out saying, hey, you all asked me to get rid of ASC, and I did; the POWDR folks were the best group that came forward, so here we are.

And why are we where we are:

Skiing in the east is permanently disadvantaged in terms of skier days by what seems to be consistently more challenging weather vagaries, and by the cheap and available air flights to ski areas out west, where it’s more likely going to be warmer with more wide open, less crowded slopes, and where folks would rather go as they only ski a week or two when the kids can get off.

Time back it was conceivable to build a ski area in the East that could attract enough people to be a profitable enterprise from skier-based revenues, but the realities of an uncertain revenue stream vs high fixed costs meant for an inconsistent business. And then the 25 year bull market began in the early 80’s a magical time of low interest rates and soaring stock markets, which meant excess monies to spend which meant second homes, and ski areas found another and much more lucrative way to finance themselves.

At the K, we did at least benefit from the earlier model and got mostly-awesome terrain and lift expansion. But the Less Otten approach of ski focus also carried with it some risk, even though his financial model is the benchmark for all of modern finance, ie massive borrowings that can be supported by the cash flows of the business and, by deducting my borrowed interest, I can print some good earnings and drive my stock price higher – which is my goal as I own most of it. Unfortunately for some reason Les Otten could not or did not borrow floating-rate money, and so when the weather turned and air travel became easier he was forced to seek a bailout and then you’re in with the loan sharks for good.

High interest and other fixed costs, bad weather, and the allure of out-west skiing can even make a loan shark squirm, and so they sell off what’s valuable, which is the developable land at K, and hence the real estate investor SP Land becomes the new owner. Their investment plan gets blown up when their chosen developer has to leave the project and their partner in ASC looks for better risk reward ventures than ski areas.

SP Land has to bring in an experienced ski area operator to help realize their investment goal and POWDR takes the bite. POWDR has to make its money mainly by running the area and so it has very few options other than trying to establish some sound financial footing and then go from there. Maybe they approach it all a bit too dispassionately, but in today’s world, all benefits of capitalism are designed to accrue to the stake and shareholders of an enterprise, which means a fanatic devotion to cost cutting.

And anyway the world has changed. We’ve seen the complete transformation of the sport of skiing, which has gone from a vision of striving to improve my technique and step up terrain to challenge myself and hope I don’t get my ass kicked, to the synthetic and easy world where folks demand entertainment ie build me something – parks and funny jumps and man made bump runs – and where it’s all about short skis, and terrain that I can master without too much technique or exhaustion, and snowboarding – 1 part going down the mountain and 7 parts sitting on the mountain talking to my friends.. Where’s the biggest growth in the sport – indoors!

POWDR knows reality and as far as K goes I think they understand the need for at the very least the best conditions they can manufacture as they have the competition beat on terrain and length of season (everyone else has less running early and late season and that is a fact) and proximity. The community stuff will have to work its way in down the road, and so Selbo’s hoping for the best, and so should we all.

Ace.......while your posts are always interesting, your lack of vision is shocking.

People don't actually ski anymore??? Horse sh*t. You're just skiing at the wrong places that have sold their souls to the lowest common denominator. There are still plenty of places from NJ/PA all the way up to northern new england that attract serious skiers and snowboarders. Not everyone can afford to fly out west, and some of us like to ski almost every weekend during the ski season.

Short skis suck.....so do the people who ski them. Fat, longer, rockered skis are here and they are driving the market, east and west. They make almost everyone into superman on skis....previously unthinkable terrain and snow becomes very skiable. The hunger for more challenging and interesting terrain will only grow in the future, across the entire industry. There will be an even greater divide between shopping mall style resorts with easy terrain, and more challenging ones that attract real skiers....the most successful resorts will appeal to both sides of the market, without offending either. Just look at Stowe, Vail, or Whistler.

Skiing operations can't be profitable? Again, more horse sh*t. If you have the wrong strategy, of course you're not going to be profitable. But if you do have the right strategy, you can be very successful. Just look at Peak Resorts, Berkshire East, and many many others who are still alive and kicking without real estate after the ASC Dino has gone extinct. Even all the major players have sustainable skiing operations....real estate is is just icing on the cake for them. Fundamentally, you have to have a quality skiing product that is sustainable and competes well in the market to draw people in. Real estate comes after, not before that.

So, the reality is that the top end of the destination resort market has been almost completely lost to the west, with a few exceptions for Stowe, Stratton, etc. Who's that leave you to go after? The middle and low end destination market, which Killington has always been a master of.....cheap weeks of skiing and lodging, bargain 3-day weekends, package deals out the wazzo. If they somehow think they are going take this core market and go more upscale and pricer with it......they are high on crack. People will leave and go to Okemo and Stratton or drive a little further to Stowe or SB. They have little wiggle room in that market segment, without massive investment and 5+ years of serious improvements.

Then you get into your passholder/bargin ticket buyer/real estate buyer. Notice how I lumped them all together??? It's because it's the same damn market segment. While there may be a subset of "trophy home" buyers out there who barely ski and just want a nice house in the mountains, that's a extremely tiny group - and they aren't buying at Killington, because Killington can't compete in the destination market, as discussed above. No, most of the people buying real estate are simply normal people who need a place to stay when they go skiing.....it really is that damn simple. These people may ski 15 days at their home resort, or 50+, or anywhere between. But they all got to be home buyers after skiing at a resort for several years, buying passes and/or discount tickets the whole time, while renting a ski house or staying at inns or motels.

Killington isn't the same as a shiny new, massive golf course community down in Florida. People aren't going to materialize out of thin air with money dripping out of their asses with which to buy property. Dream on. SP Land and Steve Selbo have made a major mis-calculation here - they picked the resort operator with a proven national record of NOT running resorts in a manner that is attractive to the most important segment of the market for the real estate developer. POWDR is basicly a resort slum lord - not who you want at the helm it you ever want construct or sell a single damn square foot of real estate. Anybody else - Intrawest, Vail Resorts, Peak, Boyne, etc would have stepped in and started heading in the right direction with the community, the pass holders, and positve changes and news about the mountain operation. Not POWDR, they just want to pull as much money out as they can, because they seem to not have any clue about doing it right. Talk about blowing it.

HS "Cold Bedrooms" do sell!
it is silly of you to think other wise.