$500M Project in the Northeast Kingdom

[Geoff]

Vail has excellent price controls and limited deals. Aside from the early season pass pricing. If you're a visitor you're going to pay about $75 per day for a ticket and then probably throw done some cash for food, parking, etc at minimum. Adds up quick. Their overal yield per visit is probably north of $100 at this point.

I take it you haven't been to Vail in a while. The walk-up day ticket price is between $102.00 and $105.00. Most walk-up tourons don't know anybody with an EpicPass to get the friends discount. Vail tries to lock the entire market into their EpicPass products. A 7-day EpicPass is $529. That keeps the tourons from going to Copper or Winter Park.

From state sales, meals, lodging, and alcohol tax data, the entire town of Killington does about $100 million (more like $80 million last year) and the ski resort does about half of that. Maybe 650,000 skier visits generates about $50 million. I'd put the yield at more like $70-$75. From Killington's retail sales numbers, I'll bet day ticket sales were off 25% so the yield was worse last winter. They were offering promotions that they don't usually offer and still weren't generating all that many skier visits.

If you want to look at the numbers from the state, the fiscal year preliminary report for July 1, 2011->June 20, 2012 is up for sales & use tax and food, lodging, & alcohol.
http://www.state.vt.us/tax/statisticsm&rmult.shtml

One take-away from a glance at the numbers was that April was awful.

[BoozeTan]

Ask any customer when the best trail surfaces and condition are - the last half hour or the first? How many customers are on the hill close to 4pm unless it snowed? Why not close earlier so that patrollers can get their work done before it gets dark. When the daylight gets longer, remain open 8am - 4pm and keep that competitive advantage over other areas.

I asked Nyberg this exact question. His response was that there isnt enough demand to open at 8 and that the groomers were struggling to get off the hill by 8...
I responded with the fact that there is always a line at the K1 and SS at 8am and that he groomers never seemed to have a problem getting off the hill by 8 before POWDR came to town. I also suggested that there are less ppl on the hill at 4 pm so why not close at 330 and get the groomers out 30 minutes earlier. his response was that the numbers say otherwise. I said well my eyes tell me otherwise...

[da Pimp]

Groomers always made it of fthe hill in time for 8am openings, except for circumstances like bad weather overnight or the need to groom twice. The real reason that they cannot finish in time is surely the fact that less groomers are running due to their desire to employ less people and less equipment running also means less capital investments and less maintenance needed. All they talk about is buying new groomers, but they never tell us when they sell off groomers. I am sure that the qty of groomers trying to cover the same terrain is down versus pre-POWDR. I can't quote facts or numbers, but when decades of capability is reduced to the point that you have to take away the best half hour of customer time, that says it all.

The first time that racers or KMS kids go up the hill before it opens to the public there will be such an outcry. I will personally photo and video the lines waiting for opening, and make sure it gets to the press with a nice story about getting less value for your ticket dollar at Killington. Hit them with enough bad press to force them to realize how stupid their tactics are. What is the strategy to recapture all the lost skier days - open later? Groom less? Make less snow? Shorten the season? Improve nothing? Band-aid the necessities only?

[Highway Star]

Vail has excellent price controls and limited deals. Aside from the early season pass pricing. If you're a visitor you're going to pay about $75 per day for a ticket and then probably throw done some cash for food, parking, etc at minimum. Adds up quick. Their overal yield per visit is probably north of $100 at this point.

I take it you haven't been to Vail in a while. The walk-up day ticket price is between $102.00 and $105.00. Most walk-up tourons don't know anybody with an EpicPass to get the friends discount. Vail tries to lock the entire market into their EpicPass products. A 7-day EpicPass is $529. That keeps the tourons from going to Copper or Winter Park.

From state sales, meals, lodging, and alcohol tax data, the entire town of Killington does about $100 million (more like $80 million last year) and the ski resort does about half of that. Maybe 650,000 skier visits generates about $50 million. I'd put the yield at more like $70-$75. From Killington's retail sales numbers, I'll bet day ticket sales were off 25% so the yield was worse last winter. They were offering promotions that they don't usually offer and still weren't generating all that many skier visits.

If you want to look at the numbers from the state, the fiscal year preliminary report for July 1, 2011->June 20, 2012 is up for sales & use tax and food, lodging, & alcohol.
http://www.state.vt.us/tax/statisticsm&rmult.shtml

One take-away from a glance at the numbers was that April was awful.

We went last year. A 5 day pass was about $75 per day inseason. As they say, "nobody pays the walkup rate"....

Did you just read were I said ASC reported a yield per visit of $73??? Which is dead average for a large resort, BTW.

[Bubba]

Groomers always made it of fthe hill in time for 8am openings, except for circumstances like bad weather overnight or the need to groom twice. The real reason that they cannot finish in time is surely the fact that less groomers are running due to their desire to employ less people and less equipment running also means less capital investments and less maintenance needed. All they talk about is buying new groomers, but they never tell us when they sell off groomers. I am sure that the qty of groomers trying to cover the same terrain is down versus pre-POWDR. I can't quote facts or numbers, but when decades of capability is reduced to the point that you have to take away the best half hour of customer time, that says it all.

The first time that racers or KMS kids go up the hill before it opens to the public there will be such an outcry. I will personally photo and video the lines waiting for opening, and make sure it gets to the press with a nice story about getting less value for your ticket dollar at Killington. Hit them with enough bad press to force them to realize how stupid their tactics are. What is the strategy to recapture all the lost skier days - open later? Groom less? Make less snow? Shorten the season? Improve nothing? Band-aid the necessities only?

Why wait? Write letters now to the New England ski press and general media.

[laseranimal]

Here's a suggestion, instead of bitching and moaning on the interwebz, vote with your wallet and head somewhere else for the season.

I got sick and tired of the Powdr BS and now I've moved down to Magic as full time and now with all the improvements that Jay Peak is throwing up I think we're going to do our trips that way instead of the Access Road at K. I've got a couple reasons for going but it basically boils down to the following

1. Magic is WAY more family friendly then Killington ever will be. Who's brilliant idea was it to put the Park at Ramshead? Its not family friendly to pull up next to a bunch of Park Rats smoking ganja and dropping F-bombs every 3rd word when you've got your kid in the car. Then they kill off probably THE best family Green Circle trail on the mountain in Great Eastern while COMPLETELY ignoring the gigantic cluster-fck that is Great Northern. My kids a decent skier but I don't enjoy the feeling in the pit of my stomach that its only a matter of time before he gets killed by someone in the bowling alley or any of the other major choke points on the hill. I don't use ski school but the ridiculous rates they were charging the first year certainly didn't endear the Powdr corp to some of my friends with young kids.

2. If Powdr company can't bother to make anything more then a token effort at infrastructure upgrades why should I give a damn about coming to support them? I know Magic's tiny and its far from the perfect financial situation but people BLEED for that place, and I've watched skiers give their time and effort to keep the place open and running TIME AND TIME again. It makes me proud to ski there because I know from the ownership down to the skiers there is a legitimate love of THE PRODUCT that they put out, and not just the dollar bills that go through the register. The bottom line is that skiing is supposed to be fun, between all the bean counting Powdr's forgotten that. Last season taught me I'd rather be skiing crap with my friends having a good time then ski quality and be treated like a number somewhere else. If I've skied the same lift 5 times in a row you REALLY don't need to scan my ticket like I'm trying to sneak on the hill, a smile and a wave will do just fine.

3. I've got a non hardcore skier in my family related to me by marriage, there's literally nothing new and exciting about the Killington area that I'd care about of as an average non skier. A $59 snowmobile ride up to an old abandoned Motor room to get served cheese and crackers and a max of 3 drinks doesn't count. The Access Road scene feels like Tom Cruise, sure it was great in its day, but now it just feels uncomfortable and weird because there aren't enough bodies for owners to make DESPERATELY needed upgrades. I know Killington was hopping in the 70's and 80's but the establishments look like they haven't been updated since. Jay Peak's got shiny and new going for it, and the water park is a MASSIVE draw for my wife because she'll have something to do with minianimal when he wants to quit early.

[Ski_the_Moguls]

The Access Road scene feels like Tom Cruise, sure it was great in its day, but now it just feels uncomfortable and weird

That one's a keeper.

[shortski]

Well said Laser

You stated what is wrong not just for you, but also for the demographics they need to capture to be successful. Here's the million $ question, and this will be your final answer. What's the goal of Pwdr.

Until you know that there's no way to make suggestions. It's their ball they make the rules. If you know their goal you can target those goals and try to interject what's important to you but to do that there has to be discourse. That's not one of their strong points, as demonstrated by the numerous gaffs they've made in the past.

[Geoff]

Well said Laser

A case study for why Killington keeps losing skier visits.

Killington's main problem is lack of infrastructure to handle the 10 day per season intermediate skier and families. There's not enough intermediate terrain. The base lodges are outdated. The food is low quality and very expensive for the quality level. There's absolutely nothing for a non-skier to do other than drink themselves into oblivion. A fortress gated base village with a meager 30,000 square feet of commercial space and bus service from remote parking lots ain't the answer. The new K Peak day lodge is a start but the other base lodges all need a wrecking ball. The existing terrain needs to be re-laid out to address that market. All of the terrain parks and kiddie racing area are in prime intermediate and family areas. The top of Snowdon is a joke when upper Bunny is roped off for kiddie racing and Mouse run has a terrain park on it. The Stash and lower Dream Maker are prime intermediate terrain. Vagabond from the top of Rams Head needs to be brought back. Pipe Dream needs snowmaking and 50% grooming. Lifts need to be added and/or reconfigured to take as much advantage of what intermediate terrain exists. Looking at a topo map, it appears that the interconnect would add intermediate terrain. That is essential. None of that particularly helps or interests me but that is what the resort needs to do.

[millerm277]

Killington's main problem is lack of infrastructure to handle the 10 day per season intermediate skier and families.

Absolutely agreed. And while you're at it, you hit on a bunch of good points about the intermediate terrain, but I feel like you missed a BIG one. The disaster that is the Superstar side of Skye.

Bittersweet and Skyelark do not work as high-capacity trails accessible to most intermediate skiers, in average weekend conditions. Which is unfortunate, because that's exactly what the trail layout forces them to be. There is no other place on the mountain that ruins as many experiences (except maybe Great Northern), or where you can find as many people clearly in over their head on a weekend.

To start with, take a bulldozer, widen Low Road and put snowmaking on it, make it be a wider arc running parallel to in the same manner as Lower Bittersweet. Currently, it's a useless and rarely opened trail.

This should also eliminate the stupidity that is the mess on the trail map by Highlander/Snowshed. What do those two Blue lines mean? I don't know and I ski here. A first-timer certainly isn't going to have any idea what the hell that means. Why couldn't anyone design an arc so I don't have to make a sharp turn, lowering my already low speed? You get the idea.

Longer term, regardless of what trails or layout currently exists, they need to figure out a way to handle the traffic. If that means running bulldozers all over the place and completely reworking the area between SS and Vertigo, do it, even if we do lose a glade.

[da Pimp]

Good points on Snowdon and Skye. Snowdon should be an intermediate heaven, but on a typical mid season weekend the intermediate centerpieces are dedicacted to small group gates on upper bunny and terrain park on upper mouse. So where do all the blue people (read large margin family customers) have to go? Down the double fall line poorly maintained Upper Chute, or they get funneled away completely towards Rams or North Ridge. Anyone who figures out their way down Snowdon gets into the mixing bowl cluster - such fun.

Its a terrible waste of a great asset of Killington, and makes customers uncomfortable and frustrated. On the other side - terrain parks are supposed to be the new thing, an attraction to a different type of customer. So why is it that when I am in the Snowdon area, I see only handfuls of park usage and limited attendance there. If it aint an asset, it's a boat anchor. So many more customers would use that trail as a general purpose trail than use it as a park. Time to move it somewhere else. And handfuls of people running gates on upper bunny on a prime time saturday has to be changed. Not many other places to put them, but prime terrain for a few people does not grow a business, it strangles it. There are other spaces available for those programs, time to start breaking the mold and act. Imagine what will happen if they actually put in a new Snowdon quad chair, and put even more people up there or at least a consistent flow?
As much as I hate seeing trees go, there needs to be some serious widening, clearing, space creation in a few places on Snowdon.

Skye? Aside from making Skyelark and Bsweet a little wider so that they handle volume safer and with less stress to the customer, I think they work good. Except for the top access from Superstar of course. Not many options there, the ground slope and the exposure make for few good options. I like the Low Road idea. Give it an easy approach and some snowmaking and the light blue or green customer will fell happy and safe again. Not to mention that lower BS wll hold decent conditions longer into the day.

[Highway Star]

Good points on Snowdon and Skye. Snowdon should be an intermediate heaven, but on a typical mid season weekend the intermediate centerpieces are dedicacted to small group gates on upper bunny and terrain park on upper mouse. So where do all the blue people (read large margin family customers) have to go? Down the double fall line poorly maintained Upper Chute, or they get funneled away completely towards Rams or North Ridge. Anyone who figures out their way down Snowdon gets into the mixing bowl cluster - such fun.

Its a terrible waste of a great asset of Killington, and makes customers uncomfortable and frustrated. On the other side - terrain parks are supposed to be the new thing, an attraction to a different type of customer. So why is it that when I am in the Snowdon area, I see only handfuls of park usage and limited attendance there. If it aint an asset, it's a boat anchor. So many more customers would use that trail as a general purpose trail than use it as a park. Time to move it somewhere else. And handfuls of people running gates on upper bunny on a prime time saturday has to be changed. Not many other places to put them, but prime terrain for a few people does not grow a business, it strangles it. There are other spaces available for those programs, time to start breaking the mold and act. Imagine what will happen if they actually put in a new Snowdon quad chair, and put even more people up there or at least a consistent flow?
As much as I hate seeing trees go, there needs to be some serious widening, clearing, space creation in a few places on Snowdon.

Skye? Aside from making Skyelark and Bsweet a little wider so that they handle volume safer and with less stress to the customer, I think they work good. Except for the top access from Superstar of course. Not many options there, the ground slope and the exposure make for few good options. I like the Low Road idea. Give it an easy approach and some snowmaking and the light blue or green customer will fell happy and safe again. Not to mention that lower BS wll hold decent conditions longer into the day.

I've gone into great detail many times, even made a map at one point LOL.

Snowdon is the last gaping hole in their lift and trail system. It has the two worst chair lifts on the mountain (now that SQ and SRT are gone), and has the worst trail routing and intersections (now that snowshed crossover is closed). It's right in the middle of everything and tends to get a bunch of lower intermediate traffic - premium vacation vistors step up to it after rams head and snowshed, only to encounter bad traffic jams and slow lifts - not good. Having a positive intermediate experience on Snowdon is vital to get return visits of premium vacation customers, rentals, and eventually the village expansion.

You will see a 6-pak on snowdon, on the quad line, in the summer/fall of 2013. The poma and triple will be removed. There will be massive trail grading and traffic rerouting on the existing main snowmaking trail zone. Think Spruce peak at Stowe. Think blasting out mousetrap's steep pitch to blend it it with chute and upper bunnybuster.

They won't touch the snowdon trees because they are irrelevant to a large percentage of their revenue stream. The pitch does not at all lend itself to blue cruisers - steep followed by long runout. There is more than enough trail acreage on snowdon to support a 6-pak, and only a small percentage if people riding the lift will be headed to the trees. So don't worry about it.

Here is a map I made up a while back. It's a bit had to follow, but it breaks snowdon into two pods, and expert highline/conclusion/mousetrap pod plus a cruiser pod in the middle. Great northern is graded into the hillside and leads down into the canyon. Mouse trap is split up.

[laseranimal]

Basically Killington needs to do the following. Consolidate all the low use specialty groups into one small area instead of having it spread all over the hill. Mt Snow puts all the parks over in ONE area, and most other hills seem to put parks into their own self sufficient pods with a possible small park built near the base areas. At Killington you've got parks all over the F-ing place. Bear, Skye Peak, Ramshead, KBL, Snowdon. Same goes for the Racers and the Bumpers, get them all in one place and KEEP THEM THERE. I don't know where this spot would be but in all of Killington's LEGENDARY terrain there has to be at least some part of the hill that will work for all those groups without them getting in the way of everyone else. IMHO take the needles area and stick them there. Its underutilized as is and between Needles Eye, Thimble, Vertigo, Cruise Control, High Road, and Stitchline you've got some killer terrain that should work for Bumping, Parking, and Racing. Throw a waffle hut next to the empanada shop and you're good to go.

The only other zone I could see working would be to use Needles as your intermediate zone and then develop South Ridge into a park style layout, since it has no lift now why not simply put in some park features in and force all novice traffic to bear to use the new Great Eastern


There's about 60 Billion other options out there that we could all discuss until the end of time but the basic fact remains that Powdr/SP Land isn't interested in long term growth at Killington, they've made that VERY clear that they're quite happy with the profits they're making right now. Which is why they've spent the last years doing everything they can to trim expenses to fatten the bottom line and now they're just waiting around for their pension fund to mature(the village).

[da Pimp]

Damn, I hate it when bad news sounds like it is also true. POWDR seems to want as large a profit as possible WITHOUT investing or spending any additional dollars in the budget. Althuogh they pony up to buy a mountain like Copper? Seems like all the cash from resort ops goes into the other family business divisions, which are probably hurting in this economy. Sounds like ASC in a weird way.

Nyberg got promoted due to his ability to make more with less, not because he helped grow anything or make happy customers.

[Bubba]

Damn, I hate it when bad news sounds like it is also true. POWDR seems to want as large a profit as possible WITHOUT investing or spending any additional dollars in the budget. Althuogh they pony up to buy a mountain like Copper? Seems like all the cash from resort ops goes into the other family business divisions, which are probably hurting in this economy. Sounds like ASC in a weird way.

Nyberg got promoted due to his ability to make more with less, not because he helped grow anything or make happy customers.

They've put about $20 million into the mountain since they bought it, at least according to their PR. A lot of it has gone to infrastructure repair and replacement and the Skye Peak Express quad and new peak lodge are taking up the rest. While I may not like a lot of what they do in operating the place, I can't fault them for lack of capital investment even if more would be nice.