Interesting Article

rogman · Post by **rogman** » Apr 24th, '07, 12:55

When Killington was small, nobody gave a rat's ass what they did. It was all about growth and creating jobs. As it became successful, that changed. Now there are a long list of NGOs that all have a stake in the lands that Killington uses. Killington can't do anything without getting a ton of permits and agreements; and all these organizations want to get as much as they can for their blessing. It isn't even as simple as the land swap described. There were a whole bunch of side deals that never made it on paper. Woodward reservoir, Parker's Gore, the Interconnect, and the sewage treatment line were all part of the same back room agreements. Killington got something, the other NGO's got something. Give it a rest...

Welcome to the free for all, RENO...

icedtea · Post by **icedtea** » Apr 24th, '07, 12:58

What NGO's are we talking about?
Sierra Club? Greenpeace?

Highway Star · Post by **Highway Star** » Apr 24th, '07, 13:02

Mister Moose wrote:
Highway Star wrote: Please....don't let being a dumbass stop you from posting.....dumbass.....
Right, I'm the dumbass. I wasted all that time staying in school, learning how to read, spell, and multiply. Even built an electron accelerator.

Highway Star wrote: It's PRESIDENT Preston Smith........not so sure what kind of point you are trying to make here.........
Only that when people refer to "Pres" Smith, they mean his name, including the quote in the article. It's an example of your kind of analysis.

Highway Star wrote:
Land at the base of Killington....valueable? REALLY!!!!!???? OH, REALLY???????? I CAN'T POSSIBLY IMAGINE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dude, christ....how dense can you be?????

The 3000+ acres of Parker's Gore area land that was traded is now locked down in the Vermont land trust as "Bear Habitat".......which is total BS, and good luck ever getting it back from them. That land was supposed to give Killington access from Mendon, and has pretty good ski terrain and snow. It would have been linked to the old, full Sunrise area through where Juggarnaut and Solitude are, and to the South Ridge. With the Pico interconnect plans, they basicly gave up developing it, but I don't think they should have. Having all the terrain between Parkers Gore and Northeast Passage, plus a connected Pico, could probably push them to over 2000 skiable acres......do you have any conception of how big that is?
No, I don't know how big 2,000 acres would be, I'm the dumbass here, remember? But just exactly when did Killington have the development rights to both Northeast Passage and the interconnect?

Highway Star wrote: Instaid, they did the greedy thing and swapeed for the prime real estate land, which the state owned. They could have just bought it from them....which would have been expensive, I'm sure. So, they got in a hot land swap deal.....they benifit, the environmentalists benefit, the state gets screwed and the Killington Skiers get the shaft, as usual. In the end, they just sat on it for 10 years and then sold it to some texans.........
"Could have just bought it from them". Yes, like that is so easy. I'm sure that's why they did the swap, rather than opt for both. Please elaborate on that one. Do you have any idea of the steps necessary to buy land from the state? And how exactly is it the State got screwed?

And is Killington in business to please you, or make money?

#1. WTF are you talking about regarding Smith???? Who cares how he is refered to. Personally, I like to refer to him as President Smith....because he's the man. That's still accurate.....

For you to choose to pick a fight about it is just plain stupid.

#2. Guess what. You can be a "smart", technically minded person, but still be a dumbass and not "get it". You're a dumbass for attacking me groundlessly....you think you're soooo smart, but you are clearly not. Take your head out of your glorified toaster oven for a minute, and actually do some thinking for yourself, for once, and about the resort that is Killington. Do yourself a favor and read the history too. I have a technical job, and deal with smart people that don't "get it", all the time....

But just exactly when did Killington have the development rights to both Northeast Passage and the interconnect?

#3. Errr.....the early 80's????? Killington could have put in a lift and cut trails in Parkers Gore shortly after they aquired the original 1600 acre land parcel in 1982. It would have been limited development, with operations shutting down on April 1st. The state would have allowed this. Instaid, they decided to fight for rights for development of the full plan at the time, and that turned into a 15 year battle, which ulitimately failed. They would have been better off to get the initial development in there, to at least get a foothold in the area.........instaid of nothing.

#4. I'm sure if the state was willing to swap that land, they would have been willing to sell it, for the right price and conditions.....obviously, it would have been hard for ASC to get it's hands on it without the swap.....duh!!!!!

#5. Here is what REALLY sucks though........ prior to ASC, President Smith was DETERMINED to develop Parker's Gore, and kept fighting for it....for 15 years. It was part of his master plan for the mountain - terrain stretching from the NEP base at Route 4/100S, all the way across to the Rutland Valley. When ASC came along, they saw Parker's as an item that could be traded off to gain prime real estate, other development rights....and big $$$$$$$$$$$. So, they traded off prime SKIING TERRAIN, making it nearly impossible to ever develop, for land at the base of Killington which could have been aquired other means. THE LAND DEAL SUCKED FOR US, THE SKIER!!!!

TKittle88 · Post by **TKittle88** » Apr 24th, '07, 13:10

Funny... no mention of the dorm fiasco on Killington Road and the subsequent bankruptcy of the Rome Corporation, due to large part to the dual incompetence and neglect of Allen "The Edjamacation President" Wilson and Green Mountain College, or as I like to call it, "Vermont's Premier University for Dumb Rich Kids".

Anyway, free slave labor -- sorry, I mean in-house student work experience -- is worth the price of admission.

JerseyGuy - I happen to be a Green Mountain College student, and don't much appreciate your tone towards my college, my friends and community, as well as myself in this post.
As well as your false accusations of being "Dumb Rich Kids". -
I'll bet your mother that I and my peers have higher GPA's than you or your kids ever did.
Neither rich nor spoiled, I am paying for college with loans and hard working jobs.

I think you should check all of your information before opening your mouth again.
Now that I think of it, why don't you just stay down in Jersey and ski your "Mountain Creek", you should know that New Englanders like myself hate to see your SUV and yellow plates coming up the access rd.

icedtea · Post by **icedtea** » Apr 24th, '07, 13:14

TKittle88 wrote:
Funny... no mention of the dorm fiasco on Killington Road and the subsequent bankruptcy of the Rome Corporation, due to large part to the dual incompetence and neglect of Allen "The Edjamacation President" Wilson and Green Mountain College, or as I like to call it, "Vermont's Premier University for Dumb Rich Kids".

Anyway, free slave labor -- sorry, I mean in-house student work experience -- is worth the price of admission.

JerseyGuy - I happen to be a Green Mountain College student, and don't much appreciate your tone towards my college, my friends and community, as well as myself in this post.
As well as your false accusations of being "Dumb Rich Kids". -
I'll bet your mother that I and my peers have higher GPA's than you or your kids ever did.
Neither rich nor spoiled, I am paying for college with loans and hard working jobs.

I think you should check all of your information before opening your mouth again.
Now that I think of it, why don't you just stay down in Jersey and ski your "Mountain Creek", you should know that New Englanders like myself hate to see your SUV and yellow plates coming up the access rd.

F u c k Y o u.

hey don't hate on jersey that much. yay it sucks but green mtn. college does have that reputation. it just sucks to see one generalization to defeat another.

rogman · Post by **rogman** » Apr 24th, '07, 13:20

icedtea wrote:What NGO's are we talking about?
Sierra Club? Greenpeace?

Appalachian Mountain Club
Green Mountain Club
Audobon Society
Friends of Parker's Gore
Conservation Law Foundation
Vermont Natural Resources Council
Vermont Agency of Natural Resources
Farm and Wilderness Foundation
National Park Service
Sierra Club

icedtea · Post by **icedtea** » Apr 24th, '07, 13:23

rogman wrote:
icedtea wrote:What NGO's are we talking about?
Sierra Club? Greenpeace?
Appalachian Mountain Club
Green Mountain Club
Audobon Society
Friends of Parker's Gore
Conservation Law Foundation
Vermont Natural Resources Council
Vermont Agency of Natural Resources
Farm and Wilderness Foundation
National Park Service
Sierra Club

Thanks, wow that is a lot of interests to balance. I do not know about most of them except National Park Service and Sierra Club. Like most NGO's I think a lot of hypocriscy is involved and often they do not work for the public. Do you have any information on what the NGO's received from K, or is that all confidential?

Vinny Vincenzo · Post by **Vinny Vincenzo** » Apr 24th, '07, 13:25

TKittle88 wrote: I and my peers have higher GPA's than you or your kids ever did.

Your GPA is hung like a mule.

XtremeJibber2001 · Post by **XtremeJibber2001** » Apr 24th, '07, 13:25

Highway Star wrote:I have a technical job, and deal with smart people that don't "get it", all the time....

Just wondering (honestly), what do you do? Computers? Engineering? Work in big Pharma?

Highway Star · Post by **Highway Star** » Apr 24th, '07, 13:33

XtremeJibber2001 wrote:
Highway Star wrote:I have a technical job, and deal with smart people that don't "get it", all the time....
Just wondering (honestly), what do you do? Computers? Engineering? Work in big Pharma?

Sorry, not telling. But yes, I am smart.

kskier04 · Post by **kskier04** » Apr 24th, '07, 13:50

JerseyGuy - I am a graduate of Green Mountain College, and while I don't care for TKittle88's generalization of Jersey or the "I bet me and my buddies are smarter than your kids," I do take offense to your statements.
First, while I'm not 100% positive what happened with the whole "Killington campus" deal, I know that it was not in any way GMC's fault that it fell through. Bernie Rome was supposed to construct a viable college campus (dorms, cafeteria, classrooms, etc.) and failed to do so - only the dorms were finished. GMC basically said, "What good does this do us?" and backed out of the deal and the lawsuit started. What Killington and/or Allen Wilson had to do with it, I have no idea. However, Allen Wilson contributed massive amounts of time and expertise to the Resort Management program, which has produced excellent results. Also, with regard to the "free slave-labor" comment: those kids are paid just like any other employee, work 40+ hours a week and still take a few classes during their winter co-op period.

Vermont's University for Dumb Rich Kids? Is Penn State the University for steroid-enhanced football jocks? Is Rutgers the University for over-sensitive basketball players? Yes, there are some dumb rich kids at GMC, as I'm sure there were at your college. Like TKittle88, I put myself through college with loans and working 30+ hours a week (at Killington actually). I am neither rich nor stupid and I take offense to being included in your stereotypical view of small New England colleges. While I could go on and on about this, I have to go wax my BMW, only after someone reads the directions to me.

rogman · Post by **rogman** » Apr 24th, '07, 14:16

icedtea wrote:
rogman wrote:
icedtea wrote:What NGO's are we talking about?
Sierra Club? Greenpeace?
Appalachian Mountain Club
Green Mountain Club
Audobon Society
Friends of Parker's Gore
Conservation Law Foundation
Vermont Natural Resources Council
Vermont Agency of Natural Resources
Farm and Wilderness Foundation
National Park Service
Sierra Club
Thanks, wow that is a lot of interests to balance. I do not know about most of them except National Park Service and Sierra Club. Like most NGO's I think a lot of hypocriscy is involved and often they do not work for the public. Do you have any information on what the NGO's received from K, or is that all confidential?

I don't think it is confidential, just that representatives get together and come to some verbal agreements, and things proceed from there. You don't really want to document all the quid pro quos. It is more about developing trust with who you are dealing with. An example of an agreement that I think was made, but genuinely don't know:

There is a bird, Bicknell's Thrush, that is "a very high conservation priority" for the the Audubon Society. Its habitat is the higher mountain peaks of Northern New England, particularly balsam fir forests. Now I've heard mention of "Echo Woods", near the top of Killington which has grown in and is no longer skiable, due to lack of "trimming". I believe that Killington agreed to leave it alone. What did they get? Good will, mostly, i.e. a willingness to work with them on other areas that were of higher priority to Killington.

Another example (and I think this may be documented somewhere) Killington agreed to only open Juggernaut from Dec 1st to March 15th so as to protect the bear habitat. Again, Killington gave up something that wasn't particularly important to them in order to achieve higher priority objectives.

The agreements were all along the lines of, if you do this for us, we'll back you on that. I don't think there is any hypocrisy involved. It is just that different groups all have different agendas.

RENO · Post by **RENO** » Apr 24th, '07, 14:24

Geez, I leave for an hour and look what happens to this thread!
I like the insanity on this board. LOL!!!!!!!

Thanks for the Welcome MrsG, Ty and Rogman. Thanks for the invite Ty, but I won't be able to make it this weekend. Probably won't be up by closing May 6th. Damn! Oh well, we were up this past weekend for 3 days and it was the best spring weather and conditions I've ever seen at Killington. We'll be up this summer for some biking/hiking...

Highway Star · Post by **Highway Star** » Apr 24th, '07, 14:25

rogman wrote:
icedtea wrote:
rogman wrote:
icedtea wrote:What NGO's are we talking about?
Sierra Club? Greenpeace?
Appalachian Mountain Club
Green Mountain Club
Audobon Society
Friends of Parker's Gore
Conservation Law Foundation
Vermont Natural Resources Council
Vermont Agency of Natural Resources
Farm and Wilderness Foundation
National Park Service
Sierra Club
Thanks, wow that is a lot of interests to balance. I do not know about most of them except National Park Service and Sierra Club. Like most NGO's I think a lot of hypocriscy is involved and often they do not work for the public. Do you have any information on what the NGO's received from K, or is that all confidential?
I don't think it is confidential, just that representatives get together and come to some verbal agreements, and things proceed from there. You don't really want to document all the quid pro quos. It is more about developing trust with who you are dealing with. An example of an agreement that I think was made, but genuinely don't know:

There is a bird, Bicknell's Thrush, that is "a very high conservation priority" for the the Audubon Society. Its habitat is the higher mountain peaks of Northern New England, particularly balsam fir forests. Now I've heard mention of "Echo Woods", near the top of Killington which has grown in and is no longer skiable, due to lack of "trimming". I believe that Killington agreed to leave it alone. What did they get? Good will, mostly, i.e. a willingness to work with them on other areas that were of higher priority to Killington.

Another example (and I think this may be documented somewhere) Killington agreed to only open Juggernaut from Dec 1st to March 15th so as to protect the bear habitat. Again, Killington gave up something that wasn't particularly important to them in order to achieve higher priority objectives.

The agreements were all along the lines of, if you do this for us, we'll back you on that. I don't think there is any hypocrisy involved. It is just that different groups all have different agendas.

That's all well and good, but when the "higher priority objective" is GREED serviced by real estate development............that's when things fall apart for the customer.

newpylong · Post by **newpylong** » Apr 24th, '07, 14:53

POTD!!!

TKittle88 wrote:
JerseyGuy - I happen to be a Green Mountain College student, and don't much appreciate your tone towards my college, my friends and community, as well as myself in this post.
As well as your false accusations of being "Dumb Rich Kids". -
I'll bet your mother that I and my peers have higher GPA's than you or your kids ever did.
Neither rich nor spoiled, I am paying for college with loans and hard working jobs.

I think you should check all of your information before opening your mouth again.
Now that I think of it, why don't you just stay down in Jersey and ski your "Mountain Creek", you should know that New Englanders like myself hate to see your SUV and yellow plates coming up the access rd.