killington cancelling lifetime passes

jerryg · Post by **jerryg** » May 14th, '07, 21:40

This is unfortunate. My thought would be that the cost of having lawyers go over the fine print of the 240 (not a lot) lifetime passes, is a way to squeeze as much money out of people as possible. In terms of business, it works boths ways. Sure they will save a few extra bucks, but as a first business move as the new owner, the PR could be very bad.

Obviously the new owners don't need to honor something that they are not legally bound to, but I see these as a part of the mountain's history. Just because the mountain is moving on to a new phase doesn't mean that you can forget the ones who helped build Killington. These 240 lifetime passes/bonds, while having monitary value to the holder, also have symbolic value in both the nature of the pass and the rarity.

I would be upset, not so much at the legality, but the gesture. It's a poor gesture.

BigKahuna13 · Post by **BigKahuna13** » May 14th, '07, 21:59

Bubba wrote:
SkiDork wrote:Yes, we got the letter. It's actually 1 full year, and another with black out dates.

Doc NO and shortski always used to maintain that the agreement on the pass was such that whoever ran the lifts had to honor the pass.

I'm not a lawyer but I'd certainly like to hear the opinion of an attorney on whether that has any merit.
I'd bet that this was vetted by lawyers so they're probably within their rights. On the other hand, they're making a stupid first step forward that will do nothing but cause animosity among a core block of customers. Anyone know how many of those passes are out there?

It'd be monumentally stupid of them to make a move like that without making sure they were on solid ground legally. No doubt they are completely within their rights and no doubt it's a dumb-ass thing to do.

Post by **spanky** » May 14th, '07, 22:27

I tend to believe there are more (possibly a lot more) than 240 bondholders affected by this. There were 240 original lifetime bonds, but there were subsequent bond issuances that are impacted as well.

I'm curious how this is related to the bonds being called - as skibags mentioned recently.

kt22cliffjumper · Post by **kt22cliffjumper** » May 14th, '07, 22:39

I'm amused that the so called "life time pass holders" can be so naive. Granted, this isn't the greatest PR move on the new owner's part, but as far as economics go, this is a no brainer. And I'm not sure how many people actually have one of these, but there can't be that many people who have these. So this is not even that big of a PR hit. I'm surprised they offered free pass. The life time pass holders wouldn't have contributed no extra $$ while using the lifts. So if the new owners have no legal problem with not honouring the pass - and I'm pretty sure they pored over the fine prints with multiple lawyers - they now have either the extra revenue or at least trails will be less crowded. I see no downside.

skiingsnow · Post by **skiingsnow** » May 14th, '07, 22:42

millerm277 wrote:Well, based on the wording of that, it is perfectly within their rights to cancel the passes, as they are based on an investment in a company, that now has nothing to do with Killington.

I agree with you... and it seems to be less then 500 people would be affected... Some(very few) of those people will buy a season pass or some day tickets, so they really didn't have much to gain or lose with this only affecting a relatively small amount of people. It totally sucks for the people affected, buy if the new company doesnt want to give away hundreds of lifetime passes, then they aren't "evil" for not wanting to do so, its just a business decision they made. If anyone really loves and cares about Killington, and enjoys skiing here, then they shouldn't stop coming... I think it was a good gesture that they are giving away 2 years of passes to the former lifetime pass holders, they didn't have to give anything. Once again I do feel for those who thought they could ski at K forever, but....

skitiger · Post by **skitiger** » May 14th, '07, 22:46

Most corporate types would love you guys! If you assume, you make an "ass" out of "u" and "me". Lethargy and these assumptions will assure POWDR that the assertions we are discussing will come true. I have not read the small print, but I guarantee that the language therein will be subject to at least 2 or more different yet reasonable interpretations. The initial offer is to me at least some indication of concern by POWDR. iF THEY COULD, they probably would have done less, if anything.

Would agree with Bubba on the bad news first theory. Get bad news out of the way and then rebuild the new image.

tyrolean_skier · Post by **tyrolean_skier** » May 14th, '07, 22:50

skiingsnow wrote:
millerm277 wrote:Well, based on the wording of that, it is perfectly within their rights to cancel the passes, as they are based on an investment in a company, that now has nothing to do with Killington.
I agree with you... and it seems to be less then 500 people would be affected... Some(very few) of those people will buy a season pass or some day tickets, so they really didn't have much to gain or lose with this only affecting a relatively small amount of people. It totally sucks for the people affected, buy if the new company doesnt want to give away hundreds of lifetime passes, then they aren't "evil" for not wanting to do so, its just a business decision they made. If anyone really loves and cares about Killington, and enjoys skiing here, then they shouldn't stop coming... I think it was a good gesture that they are giving away 2 years of passes to the former lifetime pass holders, they didn't have to give anything. Once again I do feel for those who thought they could ski at K forever, but....

SkiDork and I are two of those people who bought these lifetime passes thinking that we would be able to be able to ski free after 6 years. We bought the passes because we had bought property at Killington and figured we woudl like to ski there for a quite a bit of time. Unfortunately for us we won't be able to recapture what we laid out so we will have to take the loss. We can add this one to all the other bad things that have happened in our life over the last 6 years. We've had lousy luck in many things. I wonder when we broke that mirror that caused this bad streak.

skiingsnow · Post by **skiingsnow** » May 14th, '07, 22:59

tyrolean_skier wrote:
skiingsnow wrote:
millerm277 wrote:Well, based on the wording of that, it is perfectly within their rights to cancel the passes, as they are based on an investment in a company, that now has nothing to do with Killington.
I agree with you... and it seems to be less then 500 people would be affected... Some(very few) of those people will buy a season pass or some day tickets, so they really didn't have much to gain or lose with this only affecting a relatively small amount of people. It totally sucks for the people affected, buy if the new company doesnt want to give away hundreds of lifetime passes, then they aren't "evil" for not wanting to do so, its just a business decision they made. If anyone really loves and cares about Killington, and enjoys skiing here, then they shouldn't stop coming... I think it was a good gesture that they are giving away 2 years of passes to the former lifetime pass holders, they didn't have to give anything. Once again I do feel for those who thought they could ski at K forever, but....
SkiDork and I are two of those people who bought these lifetime passes thinking that we would be able to be able to ski free after 6 years. We bought the passes because we had bought property at Killington and figured we woudl like to ski there for a quite a bit of time. Unfortunately for us we won't be able to recapture what we laid out so we will have to take the loss. We can add this one to all the other bad things that have happened in our life over the last 6 years. We've had lousy luck in many things. I wonder when we broke that mirror that caused this bad streak.

Im sorry to hear that... like I said I totally sympathize with anyone who had these passes... but it could be even worse, with a total bombshell letter saying "well under the new ownership, we dont have to honor the lifetime passes, so were not going to! When we finally have this years season passes on sale well know you'll continue to come back and Rise Above! "

tyrolean_skier · Post by **tyrolean_skier** » May 14th, '07, 23:03

skiingsnow wrote:
tyrolean_skier wrote:
skiingsnow wrote:
millerm277 wrote:Well, based on the wording of that, it is perfectly within their rights to cancel the passes, as they are based on an investment in a company, that now has nothing to do with Killington.
I agree with you... and it seems to be less then 500 people would be affected... Some(very few) of those people will buy a season pass or some day tickets, so they really didn't have much to gain or lose with this only affecting a relatively small amount of people. It totally sucks for the people affected, buy if the new company doesnt want to give away hundreds of lifetime passes, then they aren't "evil" for not wanting to do so, its just a business decision they made. If anyone really loves and cares about Killington, and enjoys skiing here, then they shouldn't stop coming... I think it was a good gesture that they are giving away 2 years of passes to the former lifetime pass holders, they didn't have to give anything. Once again I do feel for those who thought they could ski at K forever, but....
SkiDork and I are two of those people who bought these lifetime passes thinking that we would be able to be able to ski free after 6 years. We bought the passes because we had bought property at Killington and figured we woudl like to ski there for a quite a bit of time. Unfortunately for us we won't be able to recapture what we laid out so we will have to take the loss. We can add this one to all the other bad things that have happened in our life over the last 6 years. We've had lousy luck in many things. I wonder when we broke that mirror that caused this bad streak.
Im sorry to hear that... like I said I totally sympathize with anyone who had these passes... but it could be even worse, with a total bombshell letter saying "well under the new ownership, we dont have to honor the lifetime passes, so were not going to! We know you'll continue to come back and Rise Above!"

Well, after the two years of complimentary passes, we may decide to take our business elsewhere since we no longer have lifetime passes to keep us at Killington/Pico. Maybe we will opt to get tickets through a ski club and go back to skiing different mountains like in the past.

skiingsnow · Post by **skiingsnow** » May 14th, '07, 23:50

tyrolean_skier wrote:
skiingsnow wrote:
tyrolean_skier wrote:
skiingsnow wrote:
millerm277 wrote:Well, based on the wording of that, it is perfectly within their rights to cancel the passes, as they are based on an investment in a company, that now has nothing to do with Killington.
I agree with you... and it seems to be less then 500 people would be affected... Some(very few) of those people will buy a season pass or some day tickets, so they really didn't have much to gain or lose with this only affecting a relatively small amount of people. It totally sucks for the people affected, buy if the new company doesnt want to give away hundreds of lifetime passes, then they aren't "evil" for not wanting to do so, its just a business decision they made. If anyone really loves and cares about Killington, and enjoys skiing here, then they shouldn't stop coming... I think it was a good gesture that they are giving away 2 years of passes to the former lifetime pass holders, they didn't have to give anything. Once again I do feel for those who thought they could ski at K forever, but....
SkiDork and I are two of those people who bought these lifetime passes thinking that we would be able to be able to ski free after 6 years. We bought the passes because we had bought property at Killington and figured we woudl like to ski there for a quite a bit of time. Unfortunately for us we won't be able to recapture what we laid out so we will have to take the loss. We can add this one to all the other bad things that have happened in our life over the last 6 years. We've had lousy luck in many things. I wonder when we broke that mirror that caused this bad streak.
Im sorry to hear that... like I said I totally sympathize with anyone who had these passes... but it could be even worse, with a total bombshell letter saying "well under the new ownership, we dont have to honor the lifetime passes, so were not going to! We know you'll continue to come back and Rise Above!"
Well, after the two years of complimentary passes, we may decide to take our business elsewhere since we no longer have lifetime passes to keep us at Killington/Pico. Maybe we will opt to get tickets through a ski club and go back to skiing different mountains like in the past.

They may be giving the 2 years of passes, to try and recapture your business, with their new improvements, and hopefully more snowmaking, and overall better experiance then the previous few years at Killington.

Geoff · Post by **Geoff** » May 15th, '07, 05:07

It's unfortunate for the people who bought them recently but buying a resale of a lifetime pass was always going to be a risky investment. If all of the Sherburne Corporation assets and the lease for the state were transferred to some other corporation, the new owners of Killington are totally within their rights to not honor those passes. You'll recall that the state recently approved transferring the lease away from Sherburne Corporation to the new owners. That's the kiss of death.

I presume the way the American Skiing Company set this up, the Sherburne Corporation no longer has any assets. Your only recourse would be to sue the American Skiing company since they still own the Sherburne Corporation. If it were me, I'd do it in a hurry in Maine and try to get a judge to attach Sunday River or Sugarloaf assets. ASC would have to take care of you to close the sale of those resorts. Good luck.

KBL Ed · Post by **KBL Ed** » May 15th, '07, 06:31

Geoff wrote: If it were me, I'd do it in a hurry in Maine and try to get a judge to attach Sunday River or Sugarloaf assets. ASC would have to take care of you to close the sale of those resorts. Good luck.

So, you don't have a bond pass, G-man?

Dr. NO · Post by **Dr. NO** » May 15th, '07, 06:35

BigKahuna13 wrote:
Bubba wrote:
SkiDork wrote:Yes, we got the letter. It's actually 1 full year, and another with black out dates.

Doc NO and shortski always used to maintain that the agreement on the pass was such that whoever ran the lifts had to honor the pass.

I'm not a lawyer but I'd certainly like to hear the opinion of an attorney on whether that has any merit.
I'd bet that this was vetted by lawyers so they're probably within their rights. On the other hand, they're making a stupid first step forward that will do nothing but cause animosity among a core block of customers. Anyone know how many of those passes are out there?
It'd be monumentally stupid of them to make a move like that without making sure they were on solid ground legally. No doubt they are completely within their rights and no doubt it's a dumb-ass thing to do.

I dont' know, ASC attempted to block the bonds when they took over and failed. They also tried to charge bond holders for summer lift use, but that failed also due to wording of the bonds.

As for the #240, that is the TRANSFERABLE bonds. You hold the bond and can transfer the pass. There are probably several thousand of the lifetime pass bonds out there where you have the bond and only you can obtain the pass.

Still worth it to have it reviewed by a lawyer and at least question it with the AG's office in Vermont.

Dr. NO · Post by **Dr. NO** » May 15th, '07, 06:42

Geoff wrote:It's unfortunate for the people who bought them recently but buying a resale of a lifetime pass was always going to be a risky investment. If all of the Sherburne Corporation assets and the lease for the state were transferred to some other corporation, the new owners of Killington are totally within their rights to not honor those passes. You'll recall that the state recently approved transferring the lease away from Sherburne Corporation to the new owners. That's the kiss of death.

I presume the way the American Skiing Company set this up, the Sherburne Corporation no longer has any assets. Your only recourse would be to sue the American Skiing company since they still own the Sherburne Corporation. If it were me, I'd do it in a hurry in Maine and try to get a judge to attach Sunday River or Sugarloaf assets. ASC would have to take care of you to close the sale of those resorts. Good luck.

I don't see how you could hit ASC in Maine for your bond/pass in Vermont. They may still hold assets off Sherburne Corp, but they no longer have assets or control over the mountain our bonds are attached to.

If indeed they moved the land lease away from Sherburne corp and over to the new owners, the bonds would be worthless as they specify the lease in the wording.

Geoff · Post by **Geoff** » May 15th, '07, 07:15

Dr. NO wrote:
Geoff wrote:It's unfortunate for the people who bought them recently but buying a resale of a lifetime pass was always going to be a risky investment. If all of the Sherburne Corporation assets and the lease for the state were transferred to some other corporation, the new owners of Killington are totally within their rights to not honor those passes. You'll recall that the state recently approved transferring the lease away from Sherburne Corporation to the new owners. That's the kiss of death.

I presume the way the American Skiing Company set this up, the Sherburne Corporation no longer has any assets. Your only recourse would be to sue the American Skiing company since they still own the Sherburne Corporation. If it were me, I'd do it in a hurry in Maine and try to get a judge to attach Sunday River or Sugarloaf assets. ASC would have to take care of you to close the sale of those resorts. Good luck.
I don't see how you could hit ASC in Maine for your bond/pass in Vermont. They may still hold assets off Sherburne Corp, but they no longer have assets or control over the mountain our bonds are attached to.

If indeed they moved the land lease away from Sherburne corp and over to the new owners, the bonds would be worthless as they specify the lease in the wording.

You can sue wherever you want. ASC has assets in Maine.

I looked at the SEC filing. There's a $3 million indemnity escrow that is part of the asset sale. If it were me, I'd start with the Vermont AG office and explain the problem. They're quite familiar with all the Killington antics. That $3 million escrow account will buy an awful lot of season passes. The liability is with Killington Ltd, not the new owners.