10/15 Killington Board of Selectmen Meeting

[Coydog]

Powdr wants to operate the ski area in a profitable manner, and if the people that came here, when it was not profitable, decide to go someplace else, Powdr is willing to accept that.

When, exactly, was Killington itself not profitable?

[KBL Ed]

Closed half the time? Where have you been skiing? Surely not lower skyship, if Killington at all. once Skyship opens (usually around Christmas, except last year) it stays open until it closes, which is usually around the end of march, but has often been opened right through mid April, passed the expected closing date of all of Killington, this coming season.

Then I guess I dreamed all those times last year when I passed the skyeship and it wasn't running. No, I don't ski killington.

[skiingsnow]

They have apparently decided that, in the short term, they cannot recover all of those customers, and that they need to focus on making their existing operations more profitable, while, at the same time, spending money to make sure the ski area is clean , well maintained and safe. They have been quoted out of context as saying that they want fewer customers. Powdr wants to operate the ski area in a profitable manner, and if the people that came here, when it was not profitable, decide to go someplace else, Powdr is willing to accept that. It was not profitable for them to have to make snow on the same trails three times in the Thanksgiving time period to allow a few skiers to ski on lousy snow. They have also figured out that it makes no sense to keep certain lodges open, on a full service basis, for a handful of skiers.

That's BS. ASC was making money with Killington in the last few years, to the tune of $8-14 Million per year.

Thanksgiving? Yeah......there were probably 20,000 skier visits that weekend last year. They had the most terrain open in the east, and it was pretty good even though it was mobbed. So are you now saying that Thanksgiving weekend isn't worth opening for??? I'm sure there are thousands of potential customers that would disagree with you and will happily ski elsewhere this Thanksgiving if Killington isn't open.....that's ALOT of money not being spent in the Killington region.....

After reading all the operation plans, and spins comments, it seems they plan not to open snowshed or rams for thanksgiving as they have in the past, and rather focus on opening stuff Superstar area, k1, canyon, and snowdon... it doesn't sound like they plan to open a lot less terrain for thanksgiving, but rather do it higher up, thus not having much beginner terrain available, which means stay clear of Great Northern, it will be packed with beginners as one of the few beginner trails open.

[skiingsnow]

Closed half the time? Where have you been skiing? Surely not lower skyship, if Killington at all. once Skyship opens (usually around Christmas, except last year) it stays open until it closes, which is usually around the end of march, but has often been opened right through mid April, passed the expected closing date of all of Killington, this coming season.

Then I guess I dreamed all those times last year when I passed the skyeship and it wasn't running. No, I don't ski killington.

It did open very late in the season last year, which was an extreme exception to the last 5 or more years... I didn't mean to imply you dont ski Killington, just seems you would know this already if you did.

[Highway Star]

They have apparently decided that, in the short term, they cannot recover all of those customers, and that they need to focus on making their existing operations more profitable, while, at the same time, spending money to make sure the ski area is clean , well maintained and safe. They have been quoted out of context as saying that they want fewer customers. Powdr wants to operate the ski area in a profitable manner, and if the people that came here, when it was not profitable, decide to go someplace else, Powdr is willing to accept that. It was not profitable for them to have to make snow on the same trails three times in the Thanksgiving time period to allow a few skiers to ski on lousy snow. They have also figured out that it makes no sense to keep certain lodges open, on a full service basis, for a handful of skiers.

That's BS. ASC was making money with Killington in the last few years, to the tune of $8-14 Million per year.

Thanksgiving? Yeah......there were probably 20,000 skier visits that weekend last year. They had the most terrain open in the east, and it was pretty good even though it was mobbed. So are you now saying that Thanksgiving weekend isn't worth opening for??? I'm sure there are thousands of potential customers that would disagree with you and will happily ski elsewhere this Thanksgiving if Killington isn't open.....that's ALOT of money not being spent in the Killington region.....

After reading all the operation plans, and spins comments, it seems they plan not to open snowshed or rams for thanksgiving as they have in the past, and rather focus on opening stuff Superstar area, k1, canyon, and snowdon... it doesn't sound like they plan to open a lot less terrain for thanksgiving, but rather do it higher up, thus not having much beginner terrain available, which means stay clear of Great Northern, it will be packed with beginners as one of the few beginner trails open.

WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME THEY HAD SNOWSHED AND RAMS HEAD OPEN FOR THANKSGIVING?????

[Gunner]

Powdr's mission is to provide the general public with a challenging and entertaining alpine mountain experience.

It's not their mission to "exceed expectations", though some of their folks have stated that.

It's not their "mission" to make $x, or X % margins(although that is what businesses do). Even if a business is able to achieve its mission, there's no gurantee they will make money at it. It's up to the manage ment team to find ways to make their Company financially successful.

Powdr was and still is faced with an asset that has suffered from 5 years or more years of neglect. They are doing their best, with the resources they have, to fix some of those problems. I think we'll see some of those improvements.

They are also faced with a business that has lost over 250,000-400,000 or more customers in the last 5 years!

They have apparently decided that, in the short term, they cannot recover all of those customers, and that they need to focus on making their existing operations more profitable, while, at the same time, spending money to make sure the ski area is clean , well maintained and safe. They have been quoted out of context as saying that they want fewer customers. Powdr wants to operate the ski area in a profitable manner, and if the people that came here, when it was not profitable, decide to go someplace else, Powdr is willing to accept that. It was not profitable for them to have to make snow on the same trails three times in the Thanksgiving time period to allow a few skiers to ski on lousy snow. They have also figured out that it makes no sense to keep certain lodges open, on a full service basis, for a handful of skiers.

They have figured out that some lifts are operating inefficiently, providing full time servcie to a small contingent of skiers.

They have made decisions to change how they are running the business so that they can have more money left over to invest for the future.

But they have not done a good job of communicating with people that are affected, outside of their own company.

But we have to accept the fact that they are making good faith efforts to achieve their mission AND to become more profitable.

At the same time, the Town(the Chamber, the businesses, and the Town government )needs to work with Killington to find ways to sustain and improve the profitablity of all the businesses here, and to safeguard the investments that people have made.

That effort is ongoing....and will involve some negotiation... stay tuned, stay involved.

First of all thank you for posting. The more voices heard the better.

It's not their "mission" to make $x, or X % margins(although that is what businesses do). Even if a business is able to achieve its mission, there's no gurantee they will make money at it. It's up to the manage ment team to find ways to make their Company financially successful.

The resort was already profitable they are trying to increase their profit margins. They have already indicated that is their mission. One fine example is the childrens programs where prices have risen 5000%.

The second is the loss off life time pass holders. Here is one example of the lifetime pass holder that the Killington kicked to the curb. This former passholder would purchase a season pass for his wife, purchase a half share at ski house on the access road, would invite guests from out of town. The invited guests would collectively put in about 40-50 ski days each year. Some guests would were coming from Charlotte NC and Chicago Illinois. Why were these folks all coming? Simply due to my Invitation. All were the various guests were family folks were with six figure incomes. They frequently dined at such places as Hemingways, Choices among other locations, dropped dollars in the ski shops for rental equipment, and on and on. All those dollars are gone.

All of those folks will not be back all due to the fact the owners thought it would be more profitable to cut the bond holders out of the picture.

I was considering buying a real estate in the area. Obviously that will not be happening.

Closing of lifts and lodges is another example. The cutting of personal is another. The list is a long one.

They are also faced with a business that has lost over 250,000-400,000 or more customers in the last 5 years!

Well I hope the town is ready for additional losses over the next few years. Again the stated position is we want less customers with a greater profit margin from each customer. I wonder how well that will work out for the town. There is going to be less to go around for the current business owners.

[Mister Moose]

Again the stated position is we want less customers with a greater profit margin from each customer. I wonder how well that will work out for the town. There is going to be less to go around for the current business owners*.

* Especially the Long Trail pub.

Sorry you won't be up this year.

[millerm277]

Powdr was and still is faced with an asset that has suffered from 5 years or more years of neglect. They are doing their best, with the resources they have, to fix some of those problems. I think we'll see some of those improvements.

They aren't exactly limited as far as resources, but even going with the "eat what we kill" philosophy, why wouldn't they invest about the amount Killington has been making the past few years into the resort (8-14 million), for this season?

They are also faced with a business that has lost over 250,000-400,000 or more customers in the last 5 years!

That's true, but their current actions certainly aren't going to be bringing more people into the area, if anything they will lose even more visits.

They have apparently decided that, in the short term, they cannot recover all of those customers, and that they need to focus on making their existing operations more profitable, while, at the same time, spending money to make sure the ski area is clean , well maintained and safe. They have been quoted out of context as saying that they want fewer customers. Powdr wants to operate the ski area in a profitable manner, and if the people that came here, when it was not profitable, decide to go someplace else, Powdr is willing to accept that. It was not profitable for them to have to make snow on the same trails three times in the Thanksgiving time period to allow a few skiers to ski on lousy snow. They have also figured out that it makes no sense to keep certain lodges open, on a full service basis, for a handful of skiers.

First of all, the area IS profitable, and 8-14 million a year (which is what they've been making), can pay for a good amount of upgrades each year, especially since you would assume that Powdr would be able to boost profits further by drawing in even more skiers.

As far as lodges go, I can fully understand closing some of the lodges midweek, I just can't understand the ones they've chosen. Currently, they've said that the only lodges with food will be the Peak, Snowshed and Rams Head. It would be much nicer if they'd close one of those and open KBL instead.

For early/late season, I understand that it probably isn't profitable. However, there are many things Powdr could do instead of just cutting it entirely.

Some examples of things they could do:

Buy more modern snowmaking equipment that can function more efficiently in high temperatures.

Move the late-season back to Downdraft/The Canyon, which would require far less snow, and holds it better as well. (This would require some method of getting skiers to and from it though, as running the gondola just for that would be a bit of a waste).

They have made decisions to change how they are running the business so that they can have more money left over to invest for the future.

The issue I have with that is they are already a very profitable resort, and if they just invested the money they've been making the past few years back into the area, they'd be back up to their old numbers quickly and raking in money, without cutting all the elements that made K the best resort in the east.

What's wrong with the old strategy of making money AND making your customers happy?

But they have not done a good job of communicating with people that are affected, outside of their own company.

I agree.

But we have to accept the fact that they are making good faith efforts to achieve their mission AND to become more profitable.

In all honesty, I do not see a single action that they've made so far that can be made to be good for their customers, or anything but their profit. (and probably only short-term, because other areas are now offering much more for less).

[laseranimal]

Move the late-season back to Downdraft/The Canyon, which would require far less snow, and holds it better as well. (This would require some method of getting skiers to and from it though, as running the gondola just for that would be a bit of a waste).

just make people walk into/out of the canyon

it takes MAYBE 5-10 minutes and would be a small sacrifice to make for having late season skiing again

[skiadikt]

Don't think so...they said the snowmaking budget will be the same as last year, so unless we get more epic storms....

They said the snowmaking would be cosistent with that of the last 5 years. Whats wrong with that? They have always made a shitload of snow every year. Last year they may very well have made the most snow of any of the last 5 years. Not only did they make snow for 3 days at the beginning of November (2-4 maybe?) which most of which melted, they then started making snow around November 17 for the opening on the 23, which was a longer then normal period for opening, but wanted to open with more terrain then usual for the holiday.

Probably 14-15 of those 17 trails ended up getting 15-20 feet of snowmaking throughout the season, with over 5 base building/resurfacing's, after they made all the snow to open it in the first place. Then they made snow on every trail except the usual ones that never would see it (devils fiddle,ovation, vertigo, u dream maker, and so on) They built less terrain parks however (who complained about that? they still were under-used) and didnt do much base building/resurfacing to get them into spring. BUT they would have if they had been able to make 10 feet less snow on all those opening day trails, and spread throughout the mountain, we would have made it into May with great conditions all around, if all that spriing snow had never come.

A lot of people are using the "same amount of snow as asc" as "another bad thing about powdr" but I feel this is a positive thing, as ive always considered the amount of snow they make to be HUGE, and if they plan to keep up with that, then thats great! And without making that monster pile of snow at Bear, thats a lot snow for the rest of the mountain. Plus, with more low energy guns, thats less money for the same amount of snow. If they plan to spend the same amount of money, then they are going to be able to make more snow.

ROFL.....you're such a tool.....

Explain yourself... Whats your opinion of what I said? Does what I said not make sense?

Actually, it doesn't make sense and is complete and total crap. During the ASC malaise years, their snowmaking budget was way off. If you use the last five years as a baseline, the "new" Killington will be making significantly less snow than the Preston Smith Killington or the "Signature Snow" years of ASC back in the 1990's.

Many of us recall when Ovation was open from the top all winter. I can't remember the last time they made snow on it. Conclusion always had snow. Devils Fiddle always had snow. Preston Smith used to make snow on Pipe Dream. In the last five years, they also rarely did much resurfacing. They'd touch up for Presidents Week and that was it unless they got a thaw. They blew the Superstar trail pod for spring and OL for that stupid event. That was it for snowmaking once they got to February 15th.

The quality also totally sucked under ASC management. No supervisors means wet guns. In the Preston Smith years, you'd never do a death slide down the back of a snowmaking whale from blowing wet all night. I'm dubious that the quality will improve given how ASC and now the new guys have caused all the labor issues.

geoff has nailed it. and for those of you who have drank the koolaid and fallen for that 'blow tons of snow' crap, they're closing on april 13. they're only gonna blow enough snow to keep the mtn open until april 13 and that equates to blowing less snow than if you were planning to stay open into may. i'm sure their plan doesn't include closing with a ton of snow on the trails.

[laseranimal]

geoff has nailed it. and for those of you who have drank the koolaid and fallen for that 'blow tons of snow' crap, they're closing on april 13. they're only gonna blow enough snow to keep the mtn open until april 13 and that equates to blowing less snow than if you were planning to stay open into may. i'm sure their plan doesn't include closing with a ton of snow on the trails.

newsflash

just because they don't blow tons of snow doesn't mean that there won't be snow left over when the mountain closes, irregardless of how much snow gets blown

Yeah it probably won't last till June, but May skiing will still be available for those so inclined

[KBL Ed]

It did open very late in the season last year, which was an extreme exception to the last 5 or more years...

This was kind of my point. The fact is, the gondola doesn't run if there's no snow. If they, ahem, don't make any snow there, they wouldn't have to run the lower gondola and would have a ready-made "excuse" for doing so. I wouldn't condone this, I just think they were kind of dumb to make the announcement up front.

Of course, they haven't exactly proven themselves to be Einsteins, so I guess I'm not surprised at all.

[skiingsnow]

WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME THEY HAD SNOWSHED AND RAMS HEAD OPEN FOR THANKSGIVING?????

I said Snowshed OR Ramshead. It was only a short 3-5 years ago, when they used to say "Killington averages at least 80 open trails for the Thanksgiving holiday!!!" Am I the only one who remembers this? They used to get Snowshed open for Thanksgiving... it seems these times at K you had enjoyed, when the season used to be longer, over 180 - 200+ ski days... surprised you dont fully remember what terrain offerings they had during these years, all throughout the season.

[millerm277]

You know...after looking at all of this. I can come up with a very long list of actions they've made that are going to make people not want to go to Killington, I can't think of a single action that they've made that would make someone want to come to Killington.

[ncholcomb]

The 2006 SEC filing for ASC shows Killingotn(including Pico) with 795,000 skier visits. At one time that was 1,100,000 to 1.200,000. That's a loss of 3-400,000 skiers, and with revenues of $60 per skier, that's a loss of $20,000,000 in revenues.

ASC lost about $40,000,000 in 2006. That includes all expenses, depreciation and interest.

Lots of people say that Killington was profitable. But often those people are talking about revenues, less operating expenses, not including depreciation and interest expense(EBITDA).

If you look at some of the infromation available to the public such as number of lodges to service the number of skiers, number of lifts to servcie the number of skiers, it sure looks like Killington was an expensive area to run. And that's not even discussing the cost of snowmaking, particularly making it over and over on the same terrain between November 1 and Christmas.

Last year, Killington was close to closing at Christmas. Does anyone think the resort was profitable then???? Does it make sense to pay $80,000,000 for a resort, then "bet the farm" that the weather will be great?

Would any smart business person want to take the same risk that Otten took? What happened to him?? He sunk millions into this and other resorts and then the weather turned against him. I'm not saying mistakes we're made, but if he had taken a more conservative approach to start with, maybe we would have a resort village now and maybe there would be an interconnect.

Use some common sense. We may not like the impact of some of the tough minded busienss decisions that Powdr is making, but it's not our money, is it? And maybe they'll be around to invest some capital next year. Otten sure isn't.

Again, communication has not been good. And, arguably, some of the decisions have hurt some people. But there is time to work through some of those decisions to see if we can do something or get some further information to understand the thinking beghind them.