10/15 Killington Board of Selectmen Meeting

[Stormchaser]

If there's not enough midweek demand to justify the operation of Skyeship Stage 1 and Pico, and not enough demand to continue the season length we're accustomed to, then HOW in the world is there enough demand to justify building a village?

A common misconception is how the town regulates growth and new development. The town does not have complete control.

If the land is zoned for residential use, the land owner has the right to develop that land for residential use. The town may set standards for the entire town to follow, such as street width, building setback distances, minimum lot size, etc. Same goes for the Village. If the land is zoned for commercial use, the land owner may build within the list of permitted uses for that zone.

If the land is not zoned for the contemplated use, now the town has huge amounts of control in deciding whether or not to change the zoning of the parcel.

Commissions sometimes can use obstruction and delaying tactics, but that only goes so far, and taken too far it can land you in court. Big projects have corresponding big legal budgets. In cases where they thought it was worth it, towns have gone to court, and a settlement is reached at some point with the developer, if the developer has the gumption to see the process through.

Any development done by the mountain (And I say the mountain because ownership will likely change over time) within the current planning and zoning regulations is likely to win approval... eventually. If any town or state authority unilaterally prohibits a permited use under current zoning, that constitutes a taking, and the landowner must be compensated. This obviously does not apply to leased lands where the mountain is not the owner. Act 250 adds another layer to this, but it still does not change the fact that denying a permitted use constitutes a taking.

It all comes down to the reason for denial. It can't be denied just because the town doesnt want it. It can however be denied for a number of reasons that may not be reversible through court action. Public safety being the biggest. The town could argue that the existing town infrastructure and maintenance facilities are insufficient to to support an increase in population of this magnitude - roads cant handle traffic in terms of volume and wear and tear, not enough police and fire to support the increase in people, maybe they need a new fire station and police station, sewer and potable water system capacities may be insufficient, other utilites may be insufficient... Any and all of these items can be overcome with $$, but at some point, the cost gets too high, and the developer walks away.

It also, as MM said depends on what types of permits are needed. If this were a building permit only or site plan approval only, the town is very limited in reasons they can site for denial. If any sort of special permit or variance is required, the town can take into account reasons including benefit to the town, affects on surrounding properties, popular opinion, and personal objection...

[Stormin_Aussie]

Patience folks...

Good things take time, and a little pain.

Do you think Chris Nyberg left a nice job and decided he could come to Killington and lie to a bunch of people and leave with his wallet stuffed with cash?

Do you think that Steve Selbo thinks he can finesse the Town residents, Selctboard and Planning Commission, and send a few billion to his partners in Texas, without working closely with the community? This development will take twenty years!!!! He (and we) would be stupid to think short term!!

The Town of Killington has a lot of knowlegable, sophisticated residents and elected/appointed officials. They will do the right thing.

If you have something meaningful to contribute, call Chris Nyberg 422-3333. He will talk.

Prejudging the motives of Powdr, SP land, or their local representatives is not useful.

To this point, they have not done a very good job of communicating what they are doing. But talk is cheap- we got a lot of promises from ASC, and, after they built KI, the Grand and a few other lifts, they went to sleep.

Nyberg is trying to wake the resort up...give him a chance. Work with him, try to find workable solutions to the problems they are facing.
Communicate, by telephone and in person, with him and Steve Selbo, even if they do not communicate well with us.

I just noticed your posts in the KillingtonZone and would like to offer a little friendly advice:

1) What you say, CAN and WILL be used against you!!!!
2) Get out while you can!!!

And I must say, it took some courage to use your real name!!! Good Luck!

And as always, HAVE A GREAT DAY EVERYONE!!!!
THINK SNOW!

SA

[Ski Fetish]

POWDR moved in like a corporate take over. Dump the full time positions to cut costs (screw the locals). Raise prices to get bigger profits (lower skier visits and dedicated Killington Skiers). No more Bond passes (we don't believe in honoring past promises). No more Mendon and Rutland school passes (again, past promises). We eat what we kill (they are killing the economy on the access road and mountain). We want to create a better skier experience (yep, dump, fire, terminate or just make those that love the mountain and people leave (Roy) ). We need to utilize the system we have (shut down PICO and the stage one gondi 2 to 3 days / week).

Why not just shut the place down, make like Bear Creek Mountain Club and start a private area. I'm sure POWDR and SR can manage to sell it off and just rid themselves of the true skiers, locals and day trippers.

Oops, don't give em ideas.

Dr. No - Just Shut the F up - you and every other stodgy old curmudgeon on this board are completely laughable. We'll be lucky if we're skiing by November 15 - oh no it's not global warming - right, just keep sticking your head in the sand republicans.

As to Powdr no matter who bought ASC's mess and came in to make some tough business decisions, all you long-time K-zoners, waaah, waaah, would have complained equally because that is all you ever do - complain. So complain some more.

Not giving a crap about the locals? The ones that were employed for 15+ years with full benefits and did nothing in the summer time? Oh well. Had previous owners been smart they would have cross-trained them in other areas to actually contribute to the organization in marketing, advertising, running events, during the summer, or sending them to school to raise them above their waitstaff positions. But oh wait, maybe those employees actually had no interest in bettering themselves. Oh well. Hind sight is 20/20.

I for one as a VT resident got pretty pissed when I'd hear these long time employees would get laid off in the summer collect VT state benefits while earning cash on the side only to get their jobs back come ski season. Kind of ass backwards and beyond annoying to hard-working tax paying citizens.

Enough of my rant....

[Ski Fetish]

Patience folks...

Good things take time, and a little pain.

Do you think Chris Nyberg left a nice job and decided he could come to Killington and lie to a bunch of people and leave with his wallet stuffed with cash?

Do you think that Steve Selbo thinks he can finesse the Town residents, Selctboard and Planning Commission, and send a few billion to his partners in Texas, without working closely with the community? This development will take twenty years!!!! He (and we) would be stupid to think short term!!

The Town of Killington has a lot of knowlegable, sophisticated residents and elected/appointed officials. They will do the right thing.

If you have something meaningful to contribute, call Chris Nyberg 422-3333. He will talk.

Prejudging the motives of Powdr, SP land, or their local representatives is not useful.

To this point, they have not done a very good job of communicating what they are doing. But talk is cheap- we got a lot of promises from ASC, and, after they built KI, the Grand and a few other lifts, they went to sleep.

Nyberg is trying to wake the resort up...give him a chance. Work with him, try to find workable solutions to the problems they are facing.
Communicate, by telephone and in person, with him and Steve Selbo, even if they do not communicate well with us.

I just noticed your posts in the KillingtonZone and would like to offer a little friendly advice:

1) What you say, CAN and WILL be used against you!!!!
2) Get out while you can!!!

And I must say, it took some courage to use your real name!!! Good Luck!

And as always, HAVE A GREAT DAY EVERYONE!!!!
THINK SNOW!

SA

Thank you Town Gossip Columnist. As always right on schedule with some useless post. Go back to NJ.

[Coydog]

As to Powdr no matter who bought ASC's mess and came in to make some tough business decisions, all you long-time K-zoners, waaah, waaah, would have complained equally because that is all you ever do - complain. So complain some more.

We only complain when we’re not working, skiing, spending money or paying property taxes in Killington.

[millerm277]

Dr. No - Just Shut the F up - you and every other stodgy old curmudgeon on this board are completely laughable. We'll be lucky if we're skiing by November 15 - oh no it's not global warming - right, just keep sticking your head in the sand republicans.

Global warming is probably real, however...it has not caused any significant temperature change in the northeast at this point, and is not something that should affect operations now.

As to Powdr no matter who bought ASC's mess and came in to make some tough business decisions, all you long-time K-zoners, waaah, waaah, would have complained equally because that is all you ever do - complain. So complain some more.

Not giving a crap about the locals? The ones that were employed for 15+ years with full benefits and did nothing in the summer time?

How exactly would you know what they did or didn't do in the summer? In many of the positions that I know to be eliminated, they were actually year-round jobs. They weren't lifties or the like.

[kskier04]

I'm sure global climate change has nothing to do with the steadily declining snowfall amount in new england over the past couple decades. I'm sure its just part of some natural cycle, some kind of el nino on crack. Al Gore, and the thousands of scientist out there who believe global climate change is happening as we speak, just made up their facts and figures. Those fancy, hard to read charts that show the exponential increase of atmospheric C02 in relation to increasing temperatures were actually drawn by a 12 year old in algebra class. Yeah, that's it.

Where are the studies that show increases in atmospheric C02 have no ill-effects on climate?

You're probably right, but I distinctly remember feeling a little chilly riding up the Canyon quad on this date in 2000 (if my scanner still worked, I'd upload an image of the ticket). And don't try blaming the fact that we're not schlepping through knee-deep mud after hopping off the back of a pick-up truck on K's new owners. Once they make trillions of dollars by charging a normal price for a season pass, they'll have enough to perfect weather modification technology. Or maybe they'll develop a way to make snow when its 75 degrees?

Sorry... After reading the endless river of crap that seems to permeate this board nowadays, topped off by a denial of the affects of global climate change, I just snapped.

[millerm277]

I'm sure global climate change has nothing to do with the steadily declining snowfall amount in new england over the past couple decades. I'm sure its just part of some natural cycle, some kind of el nino on crack. Al Gore, and the thousands of scientist out there who believe global climate change is happening as we speak, just made up their facts and figures. Those fancy, hard to read charts that show the exponential increase of atmospheric C02 in relation to increasing temperatures were actually drawn by a 12 year old in algebra class. Yeah, that's it.

WRONG. Go look at the snow totals, Killington has them dating back 40 years or so, there have always been good years and bad years. Last year looks to be about their 7th or 8th best total ever. Their worst year was back in the 70s.

Sorry... After reading the endless river of crap that seems to permeate this board nowadays, topped off by a denial of the affects of global climate change, I just snapped.

I'm not denying global climate change or that C02 is increasing dramatically. What I am saying is that the temp increases thus far are not significant enough to be affecting snowmaking/natural snowfall much.

[Mister Moose]

2 questions:

How much has the earth warmed this century?

How reliable are the forecasts for the future trends of CO2 and temperature?

According to past predictions, at the 1963 Worlds fair, they forecast that by 1985 we would be living like the Jetsons. It's 20 years after that, and rosie still isn't doing my vaccuuming. We were going to run out of oil by 1940 if the known reserves ran dry (which consisted of Pennsylvania). Y2K was going to cause massive interuptions in financial and other circles.

I'm not saying ignore global warming, but our forecasting ability of "If you extend the curve"... has a very poor reliability rating.

Steadily declining snowfall over the past 2 decades??? Look at this chart, show me the pattern.

Dr. No - Just Shut the F up - you and every other stodgy old curmudgeon on this board are completely laughable. We'll be lucky if we're skiing by November 15 - oh no it's not global warming - right, just keep sticking your head in the sand republicans.

So, what does that make you, Chicken Little Democrat?

[Ski Fetish]

2 questions:

How much has the earth warmed this century?

How reliable are the forecasts for the future trends of CO2 and temperature?

According to past predictions, at the 1963 Worlds fair, they forecast that by 1985 we would be living like the Jetsons. It's 20 years after that, and rosie still isn't doing my vaccuuming. We were going to run out of oil by 1940 if the known reserves ran dry (which consisted of Pennsylvania). Y2K was going to cause massive interuptions in financial and other circles.

I'm not saying ignore global warming, but our forecasting ability of "If you extend the curve"... has a very poor reliability rating.

Steadily declining snowfall over the past 2 decades??? Look at this chart, show me the pattern.

Dr. No - Just Shut the F up - you and every other stodgy old curmudgeon on this board are completely laughable. We'll be lucky if we're skiing by November 15 - oh no it's not global warming - right, just keep sticking your head in the sand republicans.

So, what does that make you, Chicken Little Democrat?

I'd understand all the crap on this board if my tender perennials weren't still in full f-ing bloom, with tomatoes still on vines. They all should have been killed off by a few hard frosts a month ago. How are they supposed to make snow when other than a few cold days where it got down to 50, it's been 70 degrees! Last year other than a couple of snows in December, winter didn't really start until January 29th. What are all you complainers going to do if this warm snap just keeps going right on through New Year's . Still blame POWDR? How are a handful of die-hards going to increase skier visits in May should we have historic snows again - all you Jersey types are way into your 'shore' by then and can't be bothered by a few black flies?

Anyway MOOSE - you can call me chicken little democrat, I don't care - you can ignore the science and ignore the evidence.

[kskier04]

well 5 seconds on google yielded this:
http://www.usatoday.com/weather/news/20 ... snow_x.htm

and this:
http://www.greenfacts.org/studies/clima ... ming_1.htm

you can't look at just the snowfall totals at Killington (which are usually inflated to some extent). K is the second highest peak in VT and enjoys the "killington cloud" which frequently produces localized high-elevation snow showers when its sunny in the valley. Together, those make K a poor example for snowfall in New England. It is true, however, that I was originally talking about K. I stand corrected.

The 'extend the curve' forecasting technique isn't the most reliable system, but there's not much else to go on when trying to predict the affects of C02 emissions on temperature. However, if you plot a chart of historical temps (going back thousands of years) and overlay it on a similar chart of C02 levels, you see they are closely related. I think everyone can agree that C02 levels are increasing in the atmosphere and, if global temperature changes followed fluctuations in C02 levels in the past, isn't it relatively safe to assume they will in the future?

[millerm277]

How much has the earth warmed this century?

About 1 degree between 1900-2000, which while relatively unimportant for things such as Killington season length and the like, has had some important effects, such as raising sea levels by 4-10 inches because of it.

How reliable are the forecasts for the future trends of CO2 and temperature?

For CO2, very reliable, we can measure it accurately, and they can estimate the future very reliably for it, as for the effects of the C02, that is still debatable in my opinion. This is an interesting read, especially since much of what's said makes sense (at least to me), and seems to show that increased C02 will likely not result in more significant temp increases. http://www.dailytech.com/Latest+Researc ... le8588.htm

[Bubba]

I'd understand all the crap on this board if my tender perennials weren't still in full f-ing bloom, with tomatoes still on vines. They all should have been killed off by a few hard frosts a month ago.

All in favor of taxing carbon and wrecking our nation's economy in order to kill off Ski Fetish's plants, please raise your hand.

Personally, I'm a skeptic when it comes to global climate change and I certainly don't believe for an instant that today's warmer than average temperature has anything to do with it inasmuch as we also have colder than average temperatures in other parts of the country and the globe simultaneously. On the other hand, I am not so skeptical as to believe that man, whether through the burning of fossil fuels or through the simple fact that there are 6.5 billion of us versus 2-3 billion not that long ago, cannot have any impact on climate. I do believe we should start increasing gasoline taxes and immediately create a floor price under gasoline of at least $3 per gallon, and use the increase in revenue to lower Social Security and Medicare taxes. I also believe we should begin to build nuclear plants again. For those who want renewable energy to gain ground, I suggest building the Cape Wind project immediately, and begin to add wind turbines to suitable locations throughout New England, including places in Vermont where so-called environmentalists have shot those projects down. We need to increase drilling for natural gas offshore and in Alaska, and open up more sections of the Rockies for natural gas development, all in order to offset the use of coal and oil for electric generation.

Now, how did this thread turn from the selectboard to global warming?

[Mister Moose]

Anyway MOOSE - you can call me chicken little democrat, I don't care - you can ignore the science and ignore the evidence.

First, I am a degreed Physicist, what are your credentials?

Second, I'm not ignoring science.

Third, I gather my scientific information from many sources, not just Hollywood (admitedly a reliable source of hard data).

Fourth, the "science" you are quoting isn't science at all, it's press releases, sound bites and snippets.

My opinion is this - it's early in the knowledge curve on Global Warming. We should study it more, and we will. But don't go blaming Vermont weather or snowfall this year on global warming. Since 1880, the Earth has warmed 0.6 °C ± 0.2 °C, and one estimate has it that since WWII the warming is only .15°C. That's fifteen hundreths of a degree Celsius, and quite a bit of that is from non fossil fuel sources.

What was the hurricane forecast at the beginning of this summer? Didn't it get downgraded? And then I didn't see a single storm of any size come up the east coast past Maryland, which is unusual.

I have owned a sailboat on the coast for over 20 years, and I watch hurricanes like a hawk. The NHC web page is high up on my bookmark list. Every year they come out with their forecast for the coming season, and they are almost always wrong.

Our forecasting ability just isn't that good.

For CO2, very reliable, we can measure it accurately, and they can estimate the future very reliably for it, as for the effects of the C02, that is still debatable in my opinion.

Doubt it.

In the meantime, let's try to burn less fossil fuels, a good idea for many reasons. But its just a little premature to say that winters are warmer than they used to be, or southern VT ski areas are going to have to close due to global warming.

[Ski Fetish]

I'd understand all the crap on this board if my tender perennials weren't still in full f-ing bloom, with tomatoes still on vines. They all should have been killed off by a few hard frosts a month ago.

All in favor of taxing carbon and wrecking our nation's economy in order to kill off Ski Fetish's plants, please raise your hand.

Personally, I'm a skeptic when it comes to global climate change and I certainly don't believe for an instant that today's warmer than average temperature has anything to do with it inasmuch as we also have colder than average temperatures in other parts of the country and the globe simultaneously. On the other hand, I am not so skeptical as to believe that man, whether through the burning of fossil fuels or through the simple fact that there are 6.5 billion of us versus 2-3 billion not that long ago, cannot have any impact on climate. I do believe we should start increasing gasoline taxes and immediately create a floor price under gasoline of at least $3 per gallon, and use the increase in revenue to lower Social Security and Medicare taxes. I also believe we should begin to build nuclear plants again. For those who want renewable energy to gain ground, I suggest building the Cape Wind project immediately, and begin to add wind turbines to suitable locations throughout New England, including places in Vermont where so-called environmentalists have shot those projects down. We need to increase drilling for natural gas offshore and in Alaska, and open up more sections of the Rockies for natural gas development, all in order to offset the use of coal and oil for electric generation.

Now, how did this thread turn from the selectboard to global warming?

Sorry, just got pissed off. The majority of what one reads on this board are complaints about a company that finally released us from the hell of ASC. I appreciated the intellectual voice of reason in ncholcomb's post - propose some creative alternatives in lieu of all the incessant complaining. Doc No's post was typical of these complaints with no alternatives - and I just had to rattle off a rant.

Let's give Powdr and SP Land a chance. Quit all the bitching about a shorter season. Given the weather, global warming, a cycle, or not - you can't make snow in this kind of weather.