Frustrating: "a longer season is not in the plan"

[Humpty Dumpty]

Highway Star doesn't even make my top 5 when it comes to K-zone screen names that need to be banned for life

Ditto. And most of his points are valid, btw.

You actually take the time to read his long winded diatribes? Certainly you can make better use of your time, no?

[robgoose]

I don't have a dog in this fight... but just for fun... here is my counterargument to you HS.

1) The biggest losers among loyal cost-sensitive K passholders are those with children-- the increased prices for the kids programs has increased the season-cost tremendously for those who used ski school. (I would be interested to hear if the quality has improved). But that's not you, and other things being equal, fewer skiers total makes for a better product for those who remain.

In any case - there is no reason to be "loyal" to POWDR... the only "loyalty" question would be to ski-buddies, house-friends at K and to the small businesses you patronize.

2) At 42 days of skiing, you're pass works out to $25/day -- that's a pretty good deal (yes you could get the same deal at Sugarbush, but the cost per day of skiing is not going to be that much different over the Season, even with the later/opening and earlier/closing. (As I am hearing it, you lost 2 days). In any case, while an early season pow day can be terrific... the three to four run white ribbons of death that usually are opening weekend pales in comparison to the loss of spring skiing.

3) So... Sugarbush/Stowe with the longer seasons must be the answer, right? That depends. With a $199 Spring pass it might be cheaper/preferable (or at least a wash) to base yourself at K (preferably in a Route 100 ski house) for the season and ski the bush during the spring -- Why?
Time and Gas Money.... [the 2 extra hours of driving per weekend and added fuel costs of getting the Bush over the course of an entire Killington season (18 weekends)] - [the extra dayttrip per weekend (lets say 4) you take traveling from K to the Bush when Bush is open but K is closed) still means 14 K to Bush roundtrips saved... that's about 28 hours of driving and much more in gas money than the differnce in pass price.
Note: Whether the lodging difference results in cheaper price will also depend on how you value the extra drive time/gas prices per weekend. On the flip side, carpools from the ski house to Bush late season will likely result in gas savings that wouldn't be captured when not carpooling from home to the hill).

4) Interconnect--
For a pass-holder, the lack of an interconnect may actually be a good thing, because it keeps the Pico crowds down. If you have 42 days on the hill, then there is nothing preventing you from driving to Pico to sample the goods on the days of your choosing. You get the access, and the no-interconnect keeps weekenders away.

5) Terrain -- Bush is sweet when the Rock is open, but K offers more variety -- both in terms of microclimates and when conditions are sub-optimal. Over a season, I think that makes a difference. Be careful not to base your opinion of Bush solely on the best days there.

5) Vibe -- the question really comes down to this, are you an access road dude or a Mad River Valley mellow man? From your posts, I'm guessing Access Road.

Just my 2c...

[shortski]

What looks like legalese

Are you a lawyer, that looked like the small print at the bottom of a contract.

[Dr Z]

What looks like legalese

Are you a lawyer, that looked like the small print at the bottom of a contract.

Yeah, but it was a good read... esp the gas cost analysis.

[Bling Skier]

I don't have a dog in this fight... but just for fun... here is my counterargument to you HS.

1) The biggest losers among loyal cost-sensitive K passholders are those with children-- the increased prices for the kids programs has increased the season-cost tremendously for those who used ski school. (I would be interested to hear if the quality has improved). But that's not you, and other things being equal, fewer skiers total makes for a better product for those who remain.

In any case - there is no reason to be "loyal" to POWDR... the only "loyalty" question would be to ski-buddies, house-friends at K and to the small businesses you patronize.

2) At 42 days of skiing, you're pass works out to $25/day -- that's a pretty good deal (yes you could get the same deal at Sugarbush, but the cost per day of skiing is not going to be that much different over the Season, even with the later/opening and earlier/closing. (As I am hearing it, you lost 2 days). In any case, while an early season pow day can be terrific... the three to four run white ribbons of death that usually are opening weekend pales in comparison to the loss of spring skiing.

3) So... Sugarbush/Stowe with the longer seasons must be the answer, right? That depends. With a $199 Spring pass it might be cheaper/preferable (or at least a wash) to base yourself at K (preferably in a Route 100 ski house) for the season and ski the bush during the spring -- Why?
Time and Gas Money.... [the 2 extra hours of driving per weekend and added fuel costs of getting the Bush over the course of an entire Killington season (18 weekends)] - [the extra dayttrip per weekend (lets say 4) you take traveling from K to the Bush when Bush is open but K is closed) still means 14 K to Bush roundtrips saved... that's about 28 hours of driving and much more in gas money than the differnce in pass price.
Note: Whether the lodging difference results in cheaper price will also depend on how you value the extra drive time/gas prices per weekend. On the flip side, carpools from the ski house to Bush late season will likely result in gas savings that wouldn't be captured when not carpooling from home to the hill).

4) Interconnect--
For a pass-holder, the lack of an interconnect may actually be a good thing, because it keeps the Pico crowds down. If you have 42 days on the hill, then there is nothing preventing you from driving to Pico to sample the goods on the days of your choosing. You get the access, and the no-interconnect keeps weekenders away.

5) Terrain -- Bush is sweet when the Rock is open, but K offers more variety -- both in terms of microclimates and when conditions are sub-optimal. Over a season, I think that makes a difference. Be careful not to base your opinion of Bush solely on the best days there.

5) Vibe -- the question really comes down to this, are you an access road dude or a Mad River Valley mellow man? From your posts, I'm guessing Access Road.

Just my 2c...

Much to do about nothing,
If you have to break it down to what ski area can offer you "a change for a nickel" per run skiing, your doing too much thinking and not enough skiing.
And if you are really fussing about saving pocket change you might want to give Hunter mtn a look.

[LarryAck]

I don't think you can complain about the end of the season, until they close.

What if March is not as good as expected, and the snow starts melting quick, if they post there extending the season now, this would force additional snowmaking costs to extend there closing date.

I believe that on the 1st of April if there is deep snow depth and there is a market to keep the place open, you will find they will extend the season a few more weeks.

[rogman]

Highway Star doesn't even make my top 5 when it comes to K-zone screen names that need to be banned for life

Ditto. And most of his points are valid, btw.

You actually take the time to read his long winded diatribes? Certainly you can make better use of your time, no?

It's not my time, I'm at work... HS doesn't care about kids prices. So what? I don't either. Hope they triple 'em again, get rid of all the annoying little brats. Seriously, Killington shot themselves in the foot with that one, I only care because its just incredibly dumb. It's a window into how they think; not sure I like what I see.

The interconnect. The only reason Pico remains open and viable is the prospect of the interconnect. If the day comes that the interconnect cannot and will not happen, well, the next day, Pico will be closed for good. It's a sinkhole for money. I'm not saying it isn't a great place to ski, merely that it loses money.

Everybody places different values on various aspects of their ski experience. Terrain, length of season, vibe, restaurants & bars, distance, vertical, grooming, snow making, the list of variables is endless. Everyone is going to come up with their own method of evaluating how these factors play together. Historically, people for whom a longer season is important have gravitated to Killington. If that aspect of the experience is eliminated, then it isn't surprising that people complain. They've placed an inordinate amount of importance on that issue. That's why they're here.

Changing the dynamic isn't something that should be done lightly. Suppose Okemo suddenly decided they weren't going to be a groomers paradise, but instead let a lot more of their terrain get bumped up? I assure you, there would be a lot of protest, and the people who really value corduroy would go somewhere else. Changing your market isn't something that should be undertaken on a whim; for something as personal as skiing, it may take a generation to accomplish. I don't "get" what niche these guys are going after. I'm not sure they know either.

[Bling Skier]

I don't think you can complain about the end of the season, until they close.

What if March is not as good as expected, and the snow starts melting quick, if they post there extending the season now, this would force additional snowmaking costs to extend there closing date.

I believe that on the 1st of April if there is deep snow depth and there is a market to keep the place open, you will find they will extend the season a few more weeks.

"What if March is not as good as expected, and the snow starts melting quick"

some one should kick you in the nuts for even thinking that.
Whats wrong with you?

[Gangsta Rider]

I don't think you can complain about the end of the season, until they close.

What if March is not as good as expected, and the snow starts melting quick, if they post there extending the season now, this would force additional snowmaking costs to extend there closing date.

I believe that on the 1st of April if there is deep snow depth and there is a market to keep the place open, you will find they will extend the season a few more weeks.

"What if March is not as good as expected, and the snow starts melting quick"

some one should kick you in the nuts for even thinking that.
Whats wrong with you?

[Geoff]

Highway Star doesn't even make my top 5 when it comes to K-zone screen names that need to be banned for life

Ditto. And most of his points are valid, btw.

I disagree. I think most of his points are total crap. Let's look at them one at a time:

The bad? Talk about getting off to a bad start at Killington...we went up and skied Sunday River Nov. 10-11th because Killington wouldn't open, even though they clearly had enough snow, and every other major resort in New England found it possible to get open.

I was at Sunday River on November 10th. I drove across afterwards and went to Grange dinner in Bridgewater. The skiing at Sunday River really sucked. It was a true white ribbon of death. I did my 2 1/2 hours and quit when all the low skill Massholes with Dorchester accents showed up around 10:30. Sunday River and Mt Snow were the only ski resorts that opened that weekend. "Every other major resort in New England" just ain't the facts. If Killington had been able to open, it would have been on a bullet-proof Rime which is even more boring than the crap at Sunday River and far more painful to access.

When they did open, it was pretty icy - bad move, and I won't forget it.

Wow! This is dead wrong. Killington from opening day through New Years Day was the best stretch I can remember. Every day, there was something new to ski and it was pretty much always an advanced trail. The only really icy day I can remember was the first weekend in November hiking up. The top part of Rime was awful and they must have blown water on it for several hours to get it that bad.

Other gripes? Grooming and recovery efforts have been average at best. ASC did a signifigantly better job in the last two years, IMHO.

Until January, there was no need to recover anything. In the January thaws, they ran the guns 24x7 to recover. Grooming is the same as it's always been. It's the same employees in the same equipment.

Waiting until mid-December to open Rams Head and Snowshed, when the previous weekend they had enough snow to open them and massive crowds requiring busing out of those lots.....Absurd.

You can't have it both ways. Killington went back to their old trail rollout policy. Preston Smith knew that expert skiers ski early. Novice skiers normally don't show up until Christmas. I'm really happy that they stopped that moronic ASC policy of blowing Snowshed and Rams Head over and over only to have it melt out. That was insane since it didn't generate squat for lift ticket revenue.

The poaching policy....lame.

No it's not. If the patrol closes a trail, it means they don't want you on it and they don't feel it's safe to run a toboggan down it to get you if you trash your sorry ass on it. Stop being a spoiled brat. If you want to duck ropes, fine. Just be prepared to lose your pass.


The marketing is terrible - not my problem.

What marketing? They stopped spending money on marketing.

KBL bar being closed on weekdays...BOOO!!!

I haven't been there but, as I understand it, the bar is open midweek.

Skyeship and Pico being closed midweek (not that I really care).

They're not closed midweek. They're closed for two midweek days and operate on a 5 day schedule.

The fact that we have two mountain areas that aren't connected....Pico and Killington...humm, Stowe is connected, Sugarbush is connected.

Sugarbush has a lift to nowhere but it doesn't run midweek. Midweek, you have to take a shuttle bus. Have you ever skied Spruce at Stowe? That's a big "who cares". Of course, Stowe really needs to be interconnected with Smuggs. That once was offered and it's long gone now.

Moving up BMMC by a week and banning the BBQ'ing is a major blow.

Personally, I think that BMMC is now really over-rated. I stopped doing the BBQ thing about 5 years ago. I'd rather go skiing. Moving it up a week puts it back on its original date. They moved it into April after hitting a bunch of rock-hard March years in a row. The rest of the mountain should be great with thousands of people over at Bear not skiing. We'll see about a BBQ ban. Last year, the rumor was that they were going to ban alcohol. That didn't happen.

Holding firm to the closing date of April 13th, while at least a half dozen other resorts are poised to stay open longer....that's the last straw.


It's not April 13th yet. You can't condemn something that hasn't happened yet.

[LarryAck]

I don't think you can complain about the end of the season, until they close.

What if March is not as good as expected, and the snow starts melting quick, if they post there extending the season now, this would force additional snowmaking costs to extend there closing date.

I believe that on the 1st of April if there is deep snow depth and there is a market to keep the place open, you will find they will extend the season a few more weeks.

"What if March is not as good as expected, and the snow starts melting quick"

some one should kick you in the nuts for even thinking that.
Whats wrong with you?

You and who else?

[whiteout]

Highway Star doesn't even make my top 5 when it comes to K-zone screen names that need to be banned for life

Ditto. And most of his points are valid, btw.

I disagree. I think most of his points are total crap. Let's look at them one at a time:

The bad? Talk about getting off to a bad start at Killington...we went up and skied Sunday River Nov. 10-11th because Killington wouldn't open, even though they clearly had enough snow, and every other major resort in New England found it possible to get open.

I was at Sunday River on November 10th. I drove across afterwards and went to Grange dinner in Bridgewater. The skiing at Sunday River really sucked. It was a true white ribbon of death. I did my 2 1/2 hours and quit when all the low skill Massholes with Dorchester accents showed up around 10:30. Sunday River and Mt Snow were the only ski resorts that opened that weekend. "Every other major resort in New England" just ain't the facts. If Killington had been able to open, it would have been on a bullet-proof Rime which is even more boring than the crap at Sunday River and far more painful to access.

When they did open, it was pretty icy - bad move, and I won't forget it.

Wow! This is dead wrong. Killington from opening day through New Years Day was the best stretch I can remember. Every day, there was something new to ski and it was pretty much always an advanced trail. The only really icy day I can remember was the first weekend in November hiking up. The top part of Rime was awful and they must have blown water on it for several hours to get it that bad.

Other gripes? Grooming and recovery efforts have been average at best. ASC did a signifigantly better job in the last two years, IMHO.

Until January, there was no need to recover anything. In the January thaws, they ran the guns 24x7 to recover. Grooming is the same as it's always been. It's the same employees in the same equipment.

Waiting until mid-December to open Rams Head and Snowshed, when the previous weekend they had enough snow to open them and massive crowds requiring busing out of those lots.....Absurd.

You can't have it both ways. Killington went back to their old trail rollout policy. Preston Smith knew that expert skiers ski early. Novice skiers normally don't show up until Christmas. I'm really happy that they stopped that moronic ASC policy of blowing Snowshed and Rams Head over and over only to have it melt out. That was insane since it didn't generate squat for lift ticket revenue.

The poaching policy....lame.

No it's not. If the patrol closes a trail, it means they don't want you on it and they don't feel it's safe to run a toboggan down it to get you if you trash your sorry ass on it. Stop being a spoiled brat. If you want to duck ropes, fine. Just be prepared to lose your pass.


The marketing is terrible - not my problem.

What marketing? They stopped spending money on marketing.

KBL bar being closed on weekdays...BOOO!!!

I haven't been there but, as I understand it, the bar is open midweek.

Skyeship and Pico being closed midweek (not that I really care).

They're not closed midweek. They're closed for two midweek days and operate on a 5 day schedule.

The fact that we have two mountain areas that aren't connected....Pico and Killington...humm, Stowe is connected, Sugarbush is connected.

Sugarbush has a lift to nowhere but it doesn't run midweek. Midweek, you have to take a shuttle bus. Have you ever skied Spruce at Stowe? That's a big "who cares". Of course, Stowe really needs to be interconnected with Smuggs. That once was offered and it's long gone now.

Moving up BMMC by a week and banning the BBQ'ing is a major blow.

Personally, I think that BMMC is now really over-rated. I stopped doing the BBQ thing about 5 years ago. I'd rather go skiing. Moving it up a week puts it back on its original date. They moved it into April after hitting a bunch of rock-hard March years in a row. The rest of the mountain should be great with thousands of people over at Bear not skiing. We'll see about a BBQ ban. Last year, the rumor was that they were going to ban alcohol. That didn't happen.

Holding firm to the closing date of April 13th, while at least a half dozen other resorts are poised to stay open longer....that's the last straw.


It's not April 13th yet. You can't condemn something that hasn't happened yet.

I agree with everything you say, except the last point. Although your stance has eased lately, i seem to remember you have threatened to pull up stakes if the season ends on the 13th.

[buzzkill]

.. when all the low skill Massholes with Dorchester accents showed up around 10:30....

Sounds like every Saturday in the Canyon.

[whiteout]

Highway Star doesn't even make my top 5 when it comes to K-zone screen names that need to be banned for life

Ditto. And most of his points are valid, btw.

You actually take the time to read his long winded diatribes? Certainly you can make better use of your time, no?

It's not my time, I'm at work... HS doesn't care about kids prices. So what? I don't either. Hope they triple 'em again, get rid of all the annoying little brats. Seriously, Killington shot themselves in the foot with that one, I only care because its just incredibly dumb. It's a window into how they think; not sure I like what I see.

The interconnect. The only reason Pico remains open and viable is the prospect of the interconnect. If the day comes that the interconnect cannot and will not happen, well, the next day, Pico will be closed for good. It's a sinkhole for money. I'm not saying it isn't a great place to ski, merely that it loses money.

Everybody places different values on various aspects of their ski experience. Terrain, length of season, vibe, restaurants & bars, distance, vertical, grooming, snow making, the list of variables is endless. Everyone is going to come up with their own method of evaluating how these factors play together. Historically, people for whom a longer season is important have gravitated to Killington. If that aspect of the experience is eliminated, then it isn't surprising that people complain. They've placed an inordinate amount of importance on that issue. That's why they're here.

Changing the dynamic isn't something that should be done lightly. Suppose Okemo suddenly decided they weren't going to be a groomers paradise, but instead let a lot more of their terrain get bumped up? I assure you, there would be a lot of protest, and the people who really value corduroy would go somewhere else. Changing your market isn't something that should be undertaken on a whim; for something as personal as skiing, it may take a generation to accomplish. I don't "get" what niche these guys are going after. I'm not sure they know either.

We (and I'm sure many others) "gravitated" to K because it offers the closest, big mountain skiing experience on the EC. The extended season, though nice, was simply a bonus IMO. Blasphemous you say, perhaps, but as you've stated, these folks are placing an inordinate amount of importance on this one issue. I bet half the folks on this board complaining about the shortened season rarely even get out past mid-April. The mountain isn't going to stay open to appease a few spring bumpers, At that time access road biz is dead, 2nd home rentals are non-existent. Hey, weekends only throughwould be cool. Either way, I'll have 40+ days in by that time, and will consider this year to be a absolute success.

And what makes you think any of their on-mountain operating decisions were taken lightly? You think they're just wingin it? Just because you disagree with them doesn't mean serious thought never entered the process. And what was so sudden? If I'm not mistaken, Pwdr announced the closing date weeks prior to the start of the season. This didn't happen mid-stream as you're inferring with Okemo example. Grooming takes place ALL season, lopping off a couple/few weeks @ season end is a different animal. I might not like it, but a new owner can do what they want. Heck, it's not like they changed the ENTIRE product. Many of their decisions were hard decisions, i.e. cancelling lifetime passes, reduced operating schedules, no more ski club discounts, bla, bla, bla...I do think they went overboard with the children's programs, but I can't complain with the end result, an empty mountain, even on weekends.

[buzzkill]

Highway Star doesn't even make my top 5 when it comes to K-zone screen names that need to be banned for life

Ditto. And most of his points are valid, btw.

You actually take the time to read his long winded diatribes? Certainly you can make better use of your time, no?

It's not my time, I'm at work... HS doesn't care about kids prices. So what? I don't either. Hope they triple 'em again, get rid of all the annoying little brats. Seriously, Killington shot themselves in the foot with that one, I only care because its just incredibly dumb. It's a window into how they think; not sure I like what I see.

The interconnect. The only reason Pico remains open and viable is the prospect of the interconnect. If the day comes that the interconnect cannot and will not happen, well, the next day, Pico will be closed for good. It's a sinkhole for money. I'm not saying it isn't a great place to ski, merely that it loses money.

Everybody places different values on various aspects of their ski experience. Terrain, length of season, vibe, restaurants & bars, distance, vertical, grooming, snow making, the list of variables is endless. Everyone is going to come up with their own method of evaluating how these factors play together. Historically, people for whom a longer season is important have gravitated to Killington. If that aspect of the experience is eliminated, then it isn't surprising that people complain. They've placed an inordinate amount of importance on that issue. That's why they're here.

Changing the dynamic isn't something that should be done lightly. Suppose Okemo suddenly decided they weren't going to be a groomers paradise, but instead let a lot more of their terrain get bumped up? I assure you, there would be a lot of protest, and the people who really value corduroy would go somewhere else. Changing your market isn't something that should be undertaken on a whim; for something as personal as skiing, it may take a generation to accomplish. I don't "get" what niche these guys are going after. I'm not sure they know either.

We (and I'm sure many others) "gravitated" to K because it offers the closest, big mountain skiing experience on the EC. The extended season, though nice, was simply a bonus IMO. Blasphemous you say, perhaps, but as you've stated, these folks are placing an inordinate amount of importance on this one issue. I bet half the folks on this board complaining about the shortened season rarely even get out past mid-April. The mountain isn't going to stay open to appease a few spring bumpers, At that time access road biz is dead, 2nd home rentals are non-existent. Hey, weekends only throughwould be cool. Either way, I'll have 40+ days in by that time, and will consider this year to be a absolute success.

And what makes you think any of their on-mountain operating decisions were taken lightly? You think they're just wingin it? Just because you disagree with them doesn't mean serious thought never entered the process. And what was so sudden? If I'm not mistaken, Pwdr announced the closing date weeks prior to the start of the season. This didn't happen mid-stream as you're inferring with Okemo example. Grooming takes place ALL season, lopping off a couple/few weeks @ season end is a different animal. I might not like it, but a new owner can do what they want. Heck, it's not like they changed the ENTIRE product. Many of their decisions were hard decisions, i.e. cancelling lifetime passes, reduced operating schedules, no more ski club discounts, bla, bla, bla...I do think they went overboard with the children's programs, but I can't complain with the end result, an empty mountain, even on weekends.

very well put. I wouldn't quite say 'empty' but compared to the madness
of the A41 days, pretty close.
Good to hear a voice of reason above all the whining.