AlpineZone Killington ski area challenge 08 with Spinmaster

[Geoff]

Wow look that thread turned into a "typical alpinezone" over moderation

what an absolutely WORTHLESS site, Geoff was completely right its a complete farce.

Greg, seriously man grow a set, Tommy's a big boy and SHOULD be perfectly capable of handling himself in the deep end of the pool. Powdr's gotten a rap for not being "quick" with their responses when asked questions. I'm sure Tom was trying to counter that by attempting to reply in real time, which means he was quite aware of the consequences of working in a real-time environment.

I think there's a basic competence problem. Think back to the American Skiing Company debacle. The corporation had burst into flames. By comparison, this POWDR thing at Killington is a mild sunburn. In the ASC disaster years, they actually had competent people handling their public face on the internet. You had Skip King over in Newry who understood the power of the internet. You had Steve Wright at Killington who had corporate marching orders to deal with the internet as a very important marketing activity. You got the straight story. You may not have liked it but they didn't come out and lie to you or obfuscate their answers. BJ Fair moved ASC to Park City. Skip quit. Steve Wright quit. We got the "B" team and the Killington-run message board was shut down. Killington marketing and communications under POWDR has no visible directive from the parent company in Park City. Now that RatBurn is gone, Killington has a new person running marketing. One could imagine that this person has a clue and directed her "B" team underling to start engaging on the internet again. The trust has already been completely blown and I doubt any of us would believe a word from someone who has demonstrated over the last year that they aren't worthy of our trust. I don't see how they can keep the same person in that MarComm slot and ever have a chance of overcoming the trust issue.

[SkiDork]

I think they can turn it around if they're smart. Something to the effect of: "We're gonna start answering questions truthfully, questions we can't answer for whatever reasons won't be ignored, we'll at least say why we're not answering them and if there's a possibility we will be able to in the future" etc.

Or something. But somebody like Skip and/or Steve would have been able to handle it. Maybe Pat has the savvy to continue that tradition.

[Mister Moose]

I really liked SkiDork's question comparing the viability of mountain biking in July to late season skiing and I'll try to get that one answered.

... In a badly managed company, they put everything on a spreadsheet and manage to the spreadsheet ignoring reality. ...

It was very glaring when they slammed the doors shut on April 20th. It was very glaring when the Bear parking lot had open spots at 2:00 on Mogul Challenge Saturday for an event that was originally intended to promote and market spring skiing at Killington.

I think what happened July 4th was the inverse of April 20th. They were scared of insufficient revenue, and set a mid april closing date, and closed to larger than expected crowds. They ramped up for biking, alpine sliding, brought in stables, and other summer activities, and got tumbleweeds. It will be interesting to see what direction they go in for next summer.

Both of these situations demand flexibility and creativity, something Geoff has pointed out is lacking with central soviet type planning.

[skiadikt]

I really liked SkiDork's question comparing the viability of mountain biking in July to late season skiing and I'll try to get that one answered.

The real answer is "we f*** up". Do you really think you're going to get that kind of response from an unempowered MarComm employee? He'd get fired for it. Can you imagine Win Smith ignoring that question? These guys are so secretive that they won't even release their skier visit numbers when the town is asking for them as part of their planning process. I've dealt with bad management before. Information is closely held because they don't want anyone to see how badly they're screwing up. At a well managed company, everyone communicates and any good news is known immediately by all employees. In a badly managed company, they put everything on a spreadsheet and manage to the spreadsheet ignoring reality. Welcome to Soviet central planning. It didn't work there, either. The 3 day schedule for the Skyeship made the spreadsheet last summer. The April 13th closing date made the spreadsheet last summer. The zero services at KBL made the spreadsheet last summer. The 3 day Skyeship schedule caused such tension with the town that Killington bumped it up to 5 days last winter and it's now back to a 7 day schedule. I've heard many times that they were completely adamant about their April 13th closing with a mandatory furlough for everyone immediately afterwards. Their seasonal workforce and full-timers all made other plans and they couldn't staff the resort beyond April 20th because the morons had told all the employees to go away many months before. Killington isn't exactly paying high wages so most employees can't go very long without their next pay check. They were lining things up in the fall. KBL was another example of this manage to the spreadsheet mentality. Unless you are a tour bus novice, you don't park at Snowshed and you never set foot in that day lodge. The typical Killington skier simply brown bagged it and that ended up being revenue lost forever. I'm sure midweek alcohol sales were down so much that they had no choice but to finally re-open the Mahogany Ridge bar midweek. It's obvious to even the casual observer that Killington management is leaving a ton of revenue on the table with the way they're operating the resort. Midwinter, it really doesn't matter all that much. It was very glaring when they slammed the doors shut on April 20th. It was very glaring when the Bear parking lot had open spots at 2:00 on Mogul Challenge Saturday for an event that was originally intended to promote and market spring skiing at Killington.

+1

as far as the mtn biking vs the spring skiing thing goes, we're not gonna get a straight answer. we'll get some sort of skippy mumbo jumbo about how costs are much lower for mtn biking and that mtn biking visits are exceeding expectations. i don't buy it but that's what the party line'll be be. it's pretty clear that they're a bunch of bean counters who aren't going to budge from their "plan" and don't have a clue what this place is all about. i like the spreadsheet analogy.

[Geoff]

I really liked SkiDork's question comparing the viability of mountain biking in July to late season skiing and I'll try to get that one answered.

... In a badly managed company, they put everything on a spreadsheet and manage to the spreadsheet ignoring reality. ...

It was very glaring when they slammed the doors shut on April 20th. It was very glaring when the Bear parking lot had open spots at 2:00 on Mogul Challenge Saturday for an event that was originally intended to promote and market spring skiing at Killington.

I think what happened July 4th was the inverse of April 20th. They were scared of insufficient revenue, and set a mid april closing date, and closed to larger than expected crowds. They ramped up for biking, alpine sliding, brought in stables, and other summer activities, and got tumbleweeds. It will be interesting to see what direction they go in for next summer.

Both of these situations demand flexibility and creativity, something Geoff has pointed out is lacking with central soviet type planning.

I don't think it's the reverse of April 20th at all. The spreadsheet said "close on April 13th". The spreadsheet said "run mountain biking operation and touron K1 rides during summer school vacation".

In the old days, Killington ran the K chair and then the K1 all summer because it was important to them to project that they had a 4 season resort. When you slash the ski season from 7+ months to 5 months, you train people to go elsewhere. It's no particular surprise that summer traffic is way down. It was always quiet in the summer and there's no reason in the world to expect it to be anything but less busy than usual this summer. If you're trying to develop real estate, this is exactly what you don't want to happen. I'm amazed that E2M/SP Land isn't aware of the problem and isn't pounding the snot out of their operations partner to get their sh*t together.

[RENO]

This 4th of July didn't look any different then any other 4th at K the last 10 years for biking/hiking. Plenty of people biking this past weekend and had a good time.

As far as Spring, if they run till the end of April with more than 1 trail/lift then I'm happy. Couldn't care less about 1 trail in May. Let the bashing begin! I don't give a sh*t!

[Bubba]

I really liked SkiDork's question comparing the viability of mountain biking in July to late season skiing and I'll try to get that one answered.

... In a badly managed company, they put everything on a spreadsheet and manage to the spreadsheet ignoring reality. ...

It was very glaring when they slammed the doors shut on April 20th. It was very glaring when the Bear parking lot had open spots at 2:00 on Mogul Challenge Saturday for an event that was originally intended to promote and market spring skiing at Killington.

I think what happened July 4th was the inverse of April 20th. They were scared of insufficient revenue, and set a mid april closing date, and closed to larger than expected crowds. They ramped up for biking, alpine sliding, brought in stables, and other summer activities, and got tumbleweeds. It will be interesting to see what direction they go in for next summer.

Both of these situations demand flexibility and creativity, something Geoff has pointed out is lacking with central soviet type planning.

I don't think it's the reverse of April 20th at all. The spreadsheet said "close on April 13th". The spreadsheet said "run mountain biking operation and touron K1 rides during summer school vacation".

In the old days, Killington ran the K chair and then the K1 all summer because it was important to them to project that they had a 4 season resort. When you slash the ski season from 7+ months to 5 months, you train people to go elsewhere. It's no particular surprise that summer traffic is way down. It was always quiet in the summer and there's no reason in the world to expect it to be anything but less busy than usual this summer. If you're trying to develop real estate, this is exactly what you don't want to happen. I'm amazed that E2M/SP Land isn't aware of the problem and isn't pounding the snot out of their operations partner to get their sh*t together.

E2M/SP knows nothing about the ski business. Powdr knows nothing about running an eastern ski area. It's a perfect marriage.

[Mister Moose]

I don't think it's the reverse of April 20th at all. The spreadsheet said "close on April 13th". The spreadsheet said "run mountain biking operation and touron K1 rides during summer school vacation".

In the old days, Killington ran the K chair and then the K1 all summer because it was important to them to project that they had a 4 season resort. When you slash the ski season from 7+ months to 5 months, you train people to go elsewhere. It's no particular surprise that summer traffic is way down. It was always quiet in the summer and there's no reason in the world to expect it to be anything but less busy than usual this summer. If you're trying to develop real estate, this is exactly what you don't want to happen. I'm amazed that E2M/SP Land isn't aware of the problem and isn't pounding the snot out of their operations partner to get their sh*t together.

Inverse meaning they scheduled a close date for financial reasons. They had better than anticipated snowpack, sunny weekends, and decent crowds, but still closed. They did not adapt to the unexpected circumstances. (other than the 1 week)

They obviously operate during the summer for financial reasons. Based on comments from zoners, the summer so far has been under expectations. The unexpected here is the degree to which people are driving less to Vermont this summer. They need to adapt to this dynamic that is happening this summer.

Here's an idea... how about weekends only?

[shortski]

And yet again my questions go unanswered, I'm crushed.
Tells you something when some one ask a straight out question, to name the top five things you've accomplished since taking over and all you get is crickets.

Tom feel free to answer the questions here, and while you at it how about answering the one about communication.

Can you expound on some of the comments in Ski Area Management Magazine of March 2008. These comments were made by Dave Rathbun who has left for Mt Bachelor.

I believe the following excerpts from the article and the follow up questions I'm asking represent some of the concerns voiced by other people after reading through the questions in the Ski Area Challenge. I would appreciate your view and same and anxiously await your response.

Thank you in Advance
Shortski

"Our approach to communications is another way we've changed. We used to make bold statements and promises, now we prefer to talk about what we've accomplished."

What are the top 5 accomplishments since Powdr/KSRP has taken over Killington's operation?


"There is a new communications style and culture developing at the ski area and the community especially is having a difficult time understanding the difference."

If the new communications style is such that the community is having a difficult time in understanding it, how exactly do you plan on getting your message across?

[skiadikt]

In the old days, Killington ran the K chair and then the K1 all summer because it was important to them to project that they had a 4 season resort. When you slash the ski season from 7+ months to 5 months, you train people to go elsewhere. It's no particular surprise that summer traffic is way down. It was always quiet in the summer and there's no reason in the world to expect it to be anything but less busy than usual this summer. If you're trying to develop real estate, this is exactly what you don't want to happen. I'm amazed that E2M/SP Land isn't aware of the problem and isn't pounding the snot out of their operations partner to get their sh*t together.

i'm not even sure this weekend was less busy than usual. i was up sunday and the place seemed very quiet. maybe that's a good crowd for mtn biking. a good weather spring weekend would draw a crowd many times larger. in any case, i can't imagine the summer season being a huge revenue stream. but like geoff said, it's probably viewed as necessity in terms of projecting the image of a 4-season resort. on the other hand, a resort like vail claims they make as much in the non-ski season than the ski season.

[SPORE]

I'll chime in here. I didn't encourage Tom to take that rapid fire approach to answering questions "live". That's not usually how we do it and in a sense actually encouraged the thread to degenerate into the bitch-fest it did. Tom kinda shot himself in the foot there, unfortunately. I really liked SkiDork's question comparing the viability of mountain biking in July to late season skiing and I'll try to get that one answered.

Thanks for turning that into your typical AlpineZone pussified thread. Grow a set loser.

[laseranimal]

on the other hand, a resort like vail claims they make as much in the non-ski season than the ski season.

I've heard Bromley makes MORE money during the off season then they do during the ski season

[johnny the jibber]

everyone here understands that greg is in no way qualified to facilitate any discussion on killington or VT skiing? as he spent maybe 10 days skiing up north, the majority of his time is spent skiing CT hills like mohawk or sundown...

[SkiDork]

everyone here understands that greg is in no way qualified to facilitate any discussion on killington or VT skiing? as he spent maybe 10 days skiing up north, the majority of his time is spent skiing CT hills like mohawk or sundown...

He doesn't compose the questions. He just compiles them and sends them along to the admins of the ski area to answer. I think he's qualified to do that.

[SPORE]

everyone here understands that greg is in no way qualified to facilitate any discussion on killington or VT skiing? as he spent maybe 10 days skiing up north, the majority of his time is spent skiing CT hills like mohawk or sundown...

He doesn't compose the questions. He just compiles them and sends them along to the admins of the ski area to answer. I think he's qualified to do that.

Apparently not.