So what's next for Killington Resort?

[rogman]

Keep those thoughts coming. I was told this afternoon that they've taken note of this thread and the things people are saying about pricing and other ideas being posted.

More bad ideas??? Alright....

KBL lodge
Tear down KBL and rebuild it further upslope where the skating rink was. This would make it far easier to get between Superstar and K1, and allow more load/unload room. Access would be via a tunnel under or a sky bridge. The main floor could have a glassed in atrium bar facing Highline so parents could watch the races in comfort while getting hammered. On the other side, facing Superstar, do the same thing again. On skiers left of lower Supe, build a min terrain park, perhaps with a small tow. This could be used very early season (a la Mt Snow), before any lifts are running. A little tree cutting would be required for site lines.

Lower Great Northern
I've already suggested fixing upper GN by wrapping it the other way around Killington Peak into Ridge Run. I see two solutions for lower GN:

1. Cut a new trail around the back side of Snowdon onto Frolic, and then return it to KBL via Caper. It's a bit of an uphill slog at the end, but doable.
2. Block off the section of GN between the entrance to Mousetrap and Chute, thus forcing GN traffic down Mousetrap. At the Mousetrap headwall, create a zig to the right onto Racer's Edge, and then a zag back left to the entrance of Lower Chute. Obviously this would require an extensive bit of cutting and grading, but would make Chute a nice uninterrupted top to bottom cruiser.

[Geoff]

Well, just look at almost every other resorts website in New England. For the most part, Killington's kids programs are more than twice the cost of any other mountains.... actually not just in New England, but in the entire country!

This is very telling:

Killington:
Daycare (3 months to 6 years) $130 weekends / $100 midweek
First tracks (ages 2 and 3), Ministars (ages 4 thru 6), and Superstars (ages 7 thru 12) $180 weekends / $130 midweek; 15% to 30% discount for early bulk prepurchase

Okemo:
Daycare (6 months to 4 years) $85 / $72 Sunday until 1:00
Add $50 for 1 1/2 hour lesson add-on

Snow stars (ages 4 to 7) $110 / $90 Sunday until 1:00

Mountain Explorers (ages 7 to 14) $92 / $69 per day for 25 day bulk buy / $55 per day for 40 day bulk buy

So, apples vs apples between Okemo and Killington, 40 days of programs purchased early to get the 30% discount at Killington is $5,040. Purchased at Okemo, it's $2,600 for the young kids and $2,200 for the older kids.

Mount Snow is a little bit cheaper than Okemo. It's $2095 (young kids) and $1895 (older kids) for a kid season program pass. The day rates are also cheaper.

Stratton is a little more than Okemo but much less than Killington. $115/day $129/day holiday. You can get a lift ticket for another $30.00. Their season programs are $1200 bought early but those look more like K Ski Club-style programs.

Sugarbush is $109/day. Slightly less than Stratton.

Even Pico is more than anybody else but Killington at $130/day.

[Geoff]

so..... with the above competitive data, I'd offer an all-you-can-eat Ministars and Superstars program including kid season lift pass for around $2,500. It would be OK to cap it at 40 days. The daily rate needs to come down by around $50.00 to $120.00. Pico needs to come down to $100.00. Daycare is all out of whack and should be Okemo's $85.00. Okemo also offers an evening daycare + dinner program at reasonable prices.

[Ski-N-Sail]

Keep those thoughts coming. I was told this afternoon that they've taken note of this thread and the things people are saying about pricing and other ideas being posted.

The same stuff was said last year too.....they didn't listen then. Maybe they really are listening now, but time will tell. My biggest problem is that a college kid can a pass for substantially less than what I need to pay for a junior pass for my son.

[skifree]

Keep those thoughts coming. I was told this afternoon that they've taken note of this thread and the things people are saying about pricing and other ideas being posted.

The same stuff was said last year too.....they didn't listen then. Maybe they really are listening now, but time will tell. My biggest problem is that a college kid can a pass for substantially less than what I need to pay for a junior pass for my son.

All the resorts have college passes for ~$300 or even significantly less in the case of smaller resorts like Bolton and burke i think both have very cheap college passes. So, if the killington pass were a lot more, I guarantee you that killington would lose nearly all college students. I'm currently a college student, so I am taking advantage of the college pass this year (and last year) and have also wondered why its so cheap. I think killington the resorts have such cheap college passes because a) college kids are broke b) college kids are starting to become financially independent, and it is very difficult to purchase a pass that is expensive and most importantly c) the resorts want to sure up a future market. If they can attract kids that are young, there is a better chance the kids will come back in the future.

Killington knows that juniors are basically under the control of parents, so they are able to charge a higher price for a pass because parents will pay it (with a few complaints here and there!). Killington and almost all other resorts have the same price differential between the passes, and i think it is probably because it makes them the most money in the long run.

Does anybody who actually knows the reasoning have an explanation? Because all the above is just me thinking out loud haha

[Dr. NO]

Find a way to FIX the Skye Peak disaster with the fence to Skye Burst, Dream maker, Thimble and Needle's Eye. If you don't, someone will get wreaked at the intersections on Skye Lark/Bittersweet/Needles Eye.

[MrsG]

Doc, you're in the wrong thread . . . too much Bombay

As far as college pass, I agree, it brings the youngsters back after they are making a buck in NYC or Boston . . . but, the Jr pass is way overpriced, but understand the reasoning skifree developed . . .however; Powdr is missing the point with their early year programs . . . sure the parents can afford it, but the parents are not stupid, they will move to other mountains and pay less to get their kids hooked on skiing/riding, so they can continue the stoke for a long time . . . and their kids will be hooked to other mountains . . .

OK, maybe I had too many HH beers . . .

[Dr Z]

Doc, you're in the wrong thread . . . too much Bombay

As far as college pass, I agree, it brings the youngsters back after they are making a buck in NYC or Boston . . . but, the Jr pass is way overpriced, but understand the reasoning skifree developed . . .however; Powdr is missing the point with their early year programs . . . sure the parents can afford it, but the parents are not stupid, they will move to other mountains and pay less to get their kids hooked on skiing/riding, so they can continue the stoke for a long time . . . and their kids will be hooked to other mountains . . .
OK, maybe I had too many HH beers . . .

Exactly! This is one reason I continue to return to Killington - It's where I learned to ski. Unfortunately, due to the pricing, my grandkids are learning to be loyal elsewhere.

And Doc, I agree with you(correct thread or not). That mess around The new sky peak quad is one of the biggest traffic CFs I have seen. When it's crowded, the bowling alley and mixing bowl are tame compared to what they created. It's good the ski patrol sled hut is right there.

[rogman]

My kids are grown; I no longer care about kids pricing. Naturally, I have an opinion anyway. So far I've heard 3 arguments:
1. I can't afford it; I'm skiing elsewhere.
2. It is more expensive than the competition.
3. It is important to cater to the young, they are the seed corn, and are important for the resorts future.

The first two arguments aren't relevant. It's not that I'm unsympathetic, merely that from a business standpoint those issues don't matter. If Killington is losing money on their kids programs then they should price them at a point where they are profitable. If other ski areas want to lose money on those programs, fine, let them. It is only when you put the youth skiing market into the context of an overall business plan that it matters. Two questions to answer:
1. Can they charge less and still be profitable in this market segment?
2. If they lose money in this market, can they make additional revenue in other areas (short or long term) to make up for the losses. Is it an effective "loss leader"?

While looking at it from a "long term" multi-year business perspective may be valuable, it is clear that is not how POWDR operates. Their business plan has a very short time frame and they don't place a high premium on customer "good will", or other intangibles that are difficult to measure. This is why people consistently suspect their long term intentions. Arguing that the cost is too high, even with respect to other mountains isn't relevant. What has to be shown is that it is too high with respect to their own costs of running the program.

[wasupersoaker]

LEAVE PICO ALONE!!!

if you make the inter connect you will lose 3 very faithful customers for sure. my wife daughter and i.

3 customers represents about 15% of the skiing public at pico

thats what makes pico great

[wasupersoaker]

LEAVE PICO ALONE!!!

if you make the inter connect you will lose 3 very faithful customers for sure. my wife daughter and i. im sure there are many more like us.

there is no other mountain in central vermont with such a relaxed atmosphere. also there is no other trail anywhere like the summit glades. i can ski that trail all day long. please dont turn it into another mountain with no soul.

DON'T KILLINGTON PICO.

Do you really think that powder will leave pico open without the inter connect? It is not making money and we all know powder is only about the bottom line. Without the interconnect pico will be on the nelsap list within 5 years.

i would rather see it on the nelsap site that have the interconnect happen.

does anyone know if it is actually true that they dont make money?

[wasupersoaker]

Well, just look at almost every other resorts website in New England. For the most part, Killington's kids programs are more than twice the cost of any other mountains.... actually not just in New England, but in the entire country!

This is very telling:

Killington:
Daycare (3 months to 6 years) $130 weekends / $100 midweek
First tracks (ages 2 and 3), Ministars (ages 4 thru 6), and Superstars (ages 7 thru 12) $180 weekends / $130 midweek; 15% to 30% discount for early bulk prepurchase

Okemo:
Daycare (6 months to 4 years) $85 / $72 Sunday until 1:00
Add $50 for 1 1/2 hour lesson add-on

Snow stars (ages 4 to 7) $110 / $90 Sunday until 1:00

Mountain Explorers (ages 7 to 14) $92 / $69 per day for 25 day bulk buy / $55 per day for 40 day bulk buy

So, apples vs apples between Okemo and Killington, 40 days of programs purchased early to get the 30% discount at Killington is $5,040. Purchased at Okemo, it's $2,600 for the young kids and $2,200 for the older kids.

Mount Snow is a little bit cheaper than Okemo. It's $2095 (young kids) and $1895 (older kids) for a kid season program pass. The day rates are also cheaper.

Stratton is a little more than Okemo but much less than Killington. $115/day $129/day holiday. You can get a lift ticket for another $30.00. Their season programs are $1200 bought early but those look more like K Ski Club-style programs.

Sugarbush is $109/day. Slightly less than Stratton.

Even Pico is more than anybody else but Killington at $130/day.

Pico is actually a family mountain though. Killington is definately not a family mountain.

[Bubba]

LEAVE PICO ALONE!!!

if you make the inter connect you will lose 3 very faithful customers for sure. my wife daughter and i. im sure there are many more like us.

there is no other mountain in central vermont with such a relaxed atmosphere. also there is no other trail anywhere like the summit glades. i can ski that trail all day long. please dont turn it into another mountain with no soul.

DON'T KILLINGTON PICO.

Do you really think that powder will leave pico open without the inter connect? It is not making money and we all know powder is only about the bottom line. Without the interconnect pico will be on the nelsap list within 5 years.

i would rather see it on the nelsap site that have the interconnect happen.

does anyone know if it is actually true that they dont make money?

You'd rather see it die than have the interconnect? Wow...

Pico made money last season after having lost money for years, at least according to KSRP. I have no reason to doubt those statements.

[wasupersoaker]

LEAVE PICO ALONE!!!

if you make the inter connect you will lose 3 very faithful customers for sure. my wife daughter and i. im sure there are many more like us.

there is no other mountain in central vermont with such a relaxed atmosphere. also there is no other trail anywhere like the summit glades. i can ski that trail all day long. please dont turn it into another mountain with no soul.

DON'T KILLINGTON PICO.

Do you really think that powder will leave pico open without the inter connect? It is not making money and we all know powder is only about the bottom line. Without the interconnect pico will be on the nelsap list within 5 years.

i would rather see it on the nelsap site that have the interconnect happen.

does anyone know if it is actually true that they dont make money?

You'd rather see it die than have the interconnect? Wow...

Pico made money last season after having lost money for years, at least according to KSRP. I have no reason to doubt those statements.

id rather ski it alone than with the high class killington types

[Mister Moose]

And Doc, I agree with you(correct thread or not). That mess around The new sky peak quad is one of the biggest traffic CFs I have seen. When it's crowded, the bowling alley and mixing bowl are tame compared to what they created. It's good the ski patrol sled hut is right there.

As an example, I happened across a downed skier on the new GE just after the new SkyePeak Express quad and just before the entrance to old Needles Eye. It was a knee injury, and immobile. There was the usual high traffic flow. As I was getting the skis stuck in the snow uphill so people would stay clear, two more people fell and almost slid into us. Then the ski patroller dispatched skied by below on the way to Bittersweet part of GE. I gave chase and told her where the accident was.

This pointed up two issues: Accidents are happening there, and if Patrol takes the wrong turn going out of the hut (ie not through the wind fence where its roped off) they will be downhill of much of the accident prone part of the trail, and then have to trudge uphill to get to the right place.