Can Any Killington Locals Explain This Mess To Me?

[Bubba]

Here in Killington, the resort already does plenty of weddings and a few of the access road hotels are doing a pretty decent wedding business themselves now. Frankly, the wedding business has been developed and managed very well by the resort and weddings actually have been replacing the "blue haired" senior program business that thrived here for years but is (literally) dying off. Mountain biking has also done reasonably well. Golf tends to fluctuate with the weather but I understand the new Lodging Director has some thoughts on golf/lodging packages that have some potential.

As for overall summer business development, the town is taking charge of its own destiny and taking steps for the long term improvement of summer traffic. This clearly will not be an overnight process but this kind of coordinated town activity is long overdue. Long before a performing arts center comes to fruition (if it ever does) the town will be looking at bringing in music and theatre events (using tents, initially, as the venue) and is working with the State on expanding utilization of Kent Pond. The GM National Golf Course has its own offering for people "sponsored" by current pass holders. All of these are initial baby steps toward developing summer business and they all need time to percolate and for the town and the resort to see what works.

[aware4444]

Here in Killington, the resort already does plenty of weddings and a few of the access road hotels are doing a pretty decent wedding business themselves now. Frankly, the wedding business has been developed and managed very well by the resort and weddings actually have been replacing the "blue haired" senior program business that thrived here for years but is (literally) dying off. Mountain biking has also done reasonably well. Golf tends to fluctuate with the weather but I understand the new Lodging Director has some thoughts on golf/lodging packages that have some potential.

As for overall summer business development, the town is taking charge of its own destiny and taking steps for the long term improvement of summer traffic. This clearly will not be an overnight process but this kind of coordinated town activity is long overdue. Long before a performing arts center comes to fruition (if it ever does) the town will be looking at bringing in music and theatre events (using tents, initially, as the venue) and is working with the State on expanding utilization of Kent Pond. The GM National Golf Course has its own offering for people "sponsored" by current pass holders. All of these are initial baby steps toward developing summer business and they all need time to percolate and for the town and the resort to see what works.

Please spare me......Golf at K and GM fluctuates between bad and worse. The new Lodging Director, if he really knew anything, what the hell would he be doing here. Kent Pond, OK let's add an additional 250 people to the summer trade.
Bubba, you're amazing, you beat the crap out of POWDR and here you are shamelessly pimping for the select board. Don't bother the won't remember you when you go before them for a favor. I don't think you're thinking clearly or maybe you are over estimating your ability to be subtly convincing. I think you did better howling about not being able to drink in the parking lot.

[Bubba]

Here in Killington, the resort already does plenty of weddings and a few of the access road hotels are doing a pretty decent wedding business themselves now. Frankly, the wedding business has been developed and managed very well by the resort and weddings actually have been replacing the "blue haired" senior program business that thrived here for years but is (literally) dying off. Mountain biking has also done reasonably well. Golf tends to fluctuate with the weather but I understand the new Lodging Director has some thoughts on golf/lodging packages that have some potential.

As for overall summer business development, the town is taking charge of its own destiny and taking steps for the long term improvement of summer traffic. This clearly will not be an overnight process but this kind of coordinated town activity is long overdue. Long before a performing arts center comes to fruition (if it ever does) the town will be looking at bringing in music and theatre events (using tents, initially, as the venue) and is working with the State on expanding utilization of Kent Pond. The GM National Golf Course has its own offering for people "sponsored" by current pass holders. All of these are initial baby steps toward developing summer business and they all need time to percolate and for the town and the resort to see what works.

Please spare me......Golf at K and GM fluctuates between bad and worse. The new Lodging Director, if he really knew anything, what the hell would he be doing here. Kent Pond, OK let's add an additional 250 people to the summer trade.
Bubba, you're amazing, you beat the crap out of POWDR and here you are shamelessly pimping for the select board. Don't bother the won't remember you when you go before them for a favor. I don't think you're thinking clearly or maybe you are over estimating your ability to be subtly convincing. I think you did better howling about not being able to drink in the parking lot.

Sorry unaware, it wasn't me howling about drinking or not drinking in the parking lot. As for the rest of your comments, I'm not a golfer so can't comment on how good or bad the two courses are. The new Lodging Director and his motivation for being here? I guess you could say that about any Killington manager, up to and including Nyberg. For that matter, why is anyone here when they could be working for Vail or Intrawest if they "really knew anything". Expanding the utilization of Kent Pond? A good idea for town residents as well as potential visitors. And if it brings in 250 more, that's 250 the town didn't have before. Pimping for the Selectboard? Now that's almost funny...stupid, but almost funny.

Whatever the town or the resort does to increase business, as long as it brings in more incremental dollars than incremental cost, is a net positive, or is basic accounting not your strong suit?

[aware4444]

Here in Killington, the resort already does plenty of weddings and a few of the access road hotels are doing a pretty decent wedding business themselves now. Frankly, the wedding business has been developed and managed very well by the resort and weddings actually have been replacing the "blue haired" senior program business that thrived here for years but is (literally) dying off. Mountain biking has also done reasonably well. Golf tends to fluctuate with the weather but I understand the new Lodging Director has some thoughts on golf/lodging packages that have some potential.

As for overall summer business development, the town is taking charge of its own destiny and taking steps for the long term improvement of summer traffic. This clearly will not be an overnight process but this kind of coordinated town activity is long overdue. Long before a performing arts center comes to fruition (if it ever does) the town will be looking at bringing in music and theatre events (using tents, initially, as the venue) and is working with the State on expanding utilization of Kent Pond. The GM National Golf Course has its own offering for people "sponsored" by current pass holders. All of these are initial baby steps toward developing summer business and they all need time to percolate and for the town and the resort to see what works.

Please spare me......Golf at K and GM fluctuates between bad and worse. The new Lodging Director, if he really knew anything, what the hell would he be doing here. Kent Pond, OK let's add an additional 250 people to the summer trade.
Bubba, you're amazing, you beat the crap out of POWDR and here you are shamelessly pimping for the select board. Don't bother the won't remember you when you go before them for a favor. I don't think you're thinking clearly or maybe you are over estimating your ability to be subtly convincing. I think you did better howling about not being able to drink in the parking lot.

Sorry unaware, it wasn't me howling about drinking or not drinking in the parking lot. As for the rest of your comments, I'm not a golfer so can't comment on how good or bad the two courses are. The new Lodging Director and his motivation for being here? I guess you could say that about any Killington manager, up to and including Nyberg. For that matter, why is anyone here when they could be working for Vail or Intrawest if they "really knew anything". Expanding the utilization of Kent Pond? A good idea for town residents as well as potential visitors. And if it brings in 250 more, that's 250 the town didn't have before. Pimping for the Selectboard? Now that's almost funny...stupid, but almost funny.

Whatever the town or the resort does to increase business, as long as it brings in more incremental dollars than incremental cost, is a net positive, or is basic accounting not your strong suit?

Some guys really know their stupid.
There are a lot more FINE hotels in the US than ski areas, K is the largest in the east and one of the most well known in the US but you can't say that about the Grand. Net positive is an over simplification, utilizing resources is the way most businesses grow, Kent Pond is like adding a water fountain to Plaza Hotel, not going to mean too much. "Whatever the town or resort does" especially the resort part, sounds incosistent to most of what I've sen you write before. Incremental dollars to incremental cost would be positive, that's the point. Most of the projects are not a positive flow more like like Bernie Madoff accounting or maybe pimping.

[VTbound]

K will never draw any people in the summer. They will just continue to raise taxes higher and higher to fund wastes like the Green mtn golf course. What's wrong with letting the mountain run the course they have and collecting sales tax on the rounds? No one from anywhere near any metro area will ever come to K to see a show, or an art exhibit. They have access to the best there is. You come to K. to ski, that's it. Face it.

As all the other ski resort manager wannabes who post here, you don't have a clue. Check out Stowe, Smuggs and Sugarbush during the summer and you will see lots of visitors. The wedding business alone brings in thousands of people to Vermont during the summer. There is no reason why kmart can't do the same. I bet you have never been to Vermont during a summer weekend, yet your an expert.

In addition it sounds like your unaware of a little thing we have up here in Vermont called foliage season. Matter of fact, the wife and I the last 5 years have spent a weekend in early October at kmart staying at the Happy Bear. We meet lots of folks from the NY area escaping the rat race. It's a great time.

Commenting on what the folks who live in the town of Killington want to do is just as pathetic as someone from Vermont commenting on how things should be run in your town in Jersey, NY...wherever. If you want a voice in how things are run in Killington than move there and become involved.

I own a condo at K. and pay taxes. I also spend alot of weekends there in the summer. If I could vote on these taxes I certainly would. And posting here is getting involved.

K will never draw any people in the summer. They will just continue to raise taxes higher and higher to fund wastes like the Green mtn golf course. What's wrong with letting the mountain run the course they have and collecting sales tax on the rounds? No one from anywhere near any metro area will ever come to K to see a show, or an art exhibit. They have access to the best there is. You come to K. to ski, that's it. Face it.

There are the retirees from Florida who venture up to VT to escape the heat and they do play golf. I do believe, however, that because of the economy there will be less of them this year.

We rent out our condo to them.

Been lucky, booked for last 8 years, this year included.

How much do you get for your place in the summer compared to what you would get in winter?

[SPORE]

Here in Killington, the resort already does plenty of weddings and a few of the access road hotels are doing a pretty decent wedding business themselves now. Frankly, the wedding business has been developed and managed very well by the resort and weddings actually have been replacing the "blue haired" senior program business that thrived here for years but is (literally) dying off. Mountain biking has also done reasonably well. Golf tends to fluctuate with the weather but I understand the new Lodging Director has some thoughts on golf/lodging packages that have some potential.

As for overall summer business development, the town is taking charge of its own destiny and taking steps for the long term improvement of summer traffic. This clearly will not be an overnight process but this kind of coordinated town activity is long overdue. Long before a performing arts center comes to fruition (if it ever does) the town will be looking at bringing in music and theatre events (using tents, initially, as the venue) and is working with the State on expanding utilization of Kent Pond. The GM National Golf Course has its own offering for people "sponsored" by current pass holders. All of these are initial baby steps toward developing summer business and they all need time to percolate and for the town and the resort to see what works.

The wedding business has been developed and managed well by the resort??

Seriously? The only reason they have a good wedding business is becuase of the location. Other then that they are very subpar. They have a long way to go before being on the same level as other locations, mainly they need to replace a lot of their own fixtures and begin to provide what other places provide, instead of the wedding party bringing stuff in.

[Bubba]

Here in Killington, the resort already does plenty of weddings and a few of the access road hotels are doing a pretty decent wedding business themselves now. Frankly, the wedding business has been developed and managed very well by the resort and weddings actually have been replacing the "blue haired" senior program business that thrived here for years but is (literally) dying off. Mountain biking has also done reasonably well. Golf tends to fluctuate with the weather but I understand the new Lodging Director has some thoughts on golf/lodging packages that have some potential.

As for overall summer business development, the town is taking charge of its own destiny and taking steps for the long term improvement of summer traffic. This clearly will not be an overnight process but this kind of coordinated town activity is long overdue. Long before a performing arts center comes to fruition (if it ever does) the town will be looking at bringing in music and theatre events (using tents, initially, as the venue) and is working with the State on expanding utilization of Kent Pond. The GM National Golf Course has its own offering for people "sponsored" by current pass holders. All of these are initial baby steps toward developing summer business and they all need time to percolate and for the town and the resort to see what works.

The wedding business has been developed and managed well by the resort??

Seriously? The only reason they have a good wedding business is becuase of the location. Other then that they are very subpar. They have a long way to go before being on the same level as other locations, mainly they need to replace a lot of their own fixtures and begin to provide what other places provide, instead of the wedding party bringing stuff in.

Frankly I'm not an expert on weddings - haven't had to plan one since my own, and that was a very long time ago. When I say well developed and well managed, I speak only of the number of weddings they have had and the growth rate they seem to have had. Whether they are a first class wedding destination or whether Killington can ever be a first class wedding destination compared to elsewhere is a big question with a very easy guess ("no") as the probable answer, at least in the near term. I do know that my condo development gets a decent amount of rental business from the Grand's wedding business, far more than the senior summer business we've seen in recent years. It's higher margin for our owners on the rental program than summer LTR business as well, and with lower wear and tear on the units.

[Bubba]

Here in Killington, the resort already does plenty of weddings and a few of the access road hotels are doing a pretty decent wedding business themselves now. Frankly, the wedding business has been developed and managed very well by the resort and weddings actually have been replacing the "blue haired" senior program business that thrived here for years but is (literally) dying off. Mountain biking has also done reasonably well. Golf tends to fluctuate with the weather but I understand the new Lodging Director has some thoughts on golf/lodging packages that have some potential.

As for overall summer business development, the town is taking charge of its own destiny and taking steps for the long term improvement of summer traffic. This clearly will not be an overnight process but this kind of coordinated town activity is long overdue. Long before a performing arts center comes to fruition (if it ever does) the town will be looking at bringing in music and theatre events (using tents, initially, as the venue) and is working with the State on expanding utilization of Kent Pond. The GM National Golf Course has its own offering for people "sponsored" by current pass holders. All of these are initial baby steps toward developing summer business and they all need time to percolate and for the town and the resort to see what works.

Please spare me......Golf at K and GM fluctuates between bad and worse. The new Lodging Director, if he really knew anything, what the hell would he be doing here. Kent Pond, OK let's add an additional 250 people to the summer trade.
Bubba, you're amazing, you beat the crap out of POWDR and here you are shamelessly pimping for the select board. Don't bother the won't remember you when you go before them for a favor. I don't think you're thinking clearly or maybe you are over estimating your ability to be subtly convincing. I think you did better howling about not being able to drink in the parking lot.

Sorry unaware, it wasn't me howling about drinking or not drinking in the parking lot. As for the rest of your comments, I'm not a golfer so can't comment on how good or bad the two courses are. The new Lodging Director and his motivation for being here? I guess you could say that about any Killington manager, up to and including Nyberg. For that matter, why is anyone here when they could be working for Vail or Intrawest if they "really knew anything". Expanding the utilization of Kent Pond? A good idea for town residents as well as potential visitors. And if it brings in 250 more, that's 250 the town didn't have before. Pimping for the Selectboard? Now that's almost funny...stupid, but almost funny.

Whatever the town or the resort does to increase business, as long as it brings in more incremental dollars than incremental cost, is a net positive, or is basic accounting not your strong suit?

Some guys really know their stupid.
There are a lot more FINE hotels in the US than ski areas, K is the largest in the east and one of the most well known in the US but you can't say that about the Grand. Net positive is an over simplification, utilizing resources is the way most businesses grow, Kent Pond is like adding a water fountain to Plaza Hotel, not going to mean too much. "Whatever the town or resort does" especially the resort part, sounds incosistent to most of what I've sen you write before. Incremental dollars to incremental cost would be positive, that's the point. Most of the projects are not a positive flow more like like Bernie Madoff accounting or maybe pimping.

No, it's actually quite consistent with things I've said about the resort, particularly things like spring skiing where the incremental cost is limited and incremental revenue can more than cover incremental cost. Add in marketing/brand value and it's a clear winner.

[aware4444]

Here in Killington, the resort already does plenty of weddings and a few of the access road hotels are doing a pretty decent wedding business themselves now. Frankly, the wedding business has been developed and managed very well by the resort and weddings actually have been replacing the "blue haired" senior program business that thrived here for years but is (literally) dying off. Mountain biking has also done reasonably well. Golf tends to fluctuate with the weather but I understand the new Lodging Director has some thoughts on golf/lodging packages that have some potential.

As for overall summer business development, the town is taking charge of its own destiny and taking steps for the long term improvement of summer traffic. This clearly will not be an overnight process but this kind of coordinated town activity is long overdue. Long before a performing arts center comes to fruition (if it ever does) the town will be looking at bringing in music and theatre events (using tents, initially, as the venue) and is working with the State on expanding utilization of Kent Pond. The GM National Golf Course has its own offering for people "sponsored" by current pass holders. All of these are initial baby steps toward developing summer business and they all need time to percolate and for the town and the resort to see what works.

Please spare me......Golf at K and GM fluctuates between bad and worse. The new Lodging Director, if he really knew anything, what the hell would he be doing here. Kent Pond, OK let's add an additional 250 people to the summer trade.
Bubba, you're amazing, you beat the crap out of POWDR and here you are shamelessly pimping for the select board. Don't bother the won't remember you when you go before them for a favor. I don't think you're thinking clearly or maybe you are over estimating your ability to be subtly convincing. I think you did better howling about not being able to drink in the parking lot.

Sorry unaware, it wasn't me howling about drinking or not drinking in the parking lot. As for the rest of your comments, I'm not a golfer so can't comment on how good or bad the two courses are. The new Lodging Director and his motivation for being here? I guess you could say that about any Killington manager, up to and including Nyberg. For that matter, why is anyone here when they could be working for Vail or Intrawest if they "really knew anything". Expanding the utilization of Kent Pond? A good idea for town residents as well as potential visitors. And if it brings in 250 more, that's 250 the town didn't have before. Pimping for the Selectboard? Now that's almost funny...stupid, but almost funny.

Whatever the town or the resort does to increase business, as long as it brings in more incremental dollars than incremental cost, is a net positive, or is basic accounting not your strong suit?

Some guys really know their stupid.
There are a lot more FINE hotels in the US than ski areas, K is the largest in the east and one of the most well known in the US but you can't say that about the Grand. Net positive is an over simplification, utilizing resources is the way most businesses grow, Kent Pond is like adding a water fountain to Plaza Hotel, not going to mean too much. "Whatever the town or resort does" especially the resort part, sounds incosistent to most of what I've sen you write before. Incremental dollars to incremental cost would be positive, that's the point. Most of the projects are not a positive flow more like like Bernie Madoff accounting or maybe pimping.

No, it's actually quite consistent with things I've said about the resort, particularly things like spring skiing where the incremental cost is limited and incremental revenue can more than cover incremental cost. Add in marketing/brand value and it's a clear winner.

Then why do you think K won't go for it? It's not incremental it would cost a ton of money and I don't think they're here for that reason. What do you think it costs to open 1 lift for an extra week when no one is up there spending money for tickets, its serious money. They get to make those decisions, they bought the place.

[johnny the jibber]

aware (whatever the hell your name is), why dont you go to town meeting, or better yet, why not approach some members of the board and spout your intelligence to them, they are certainly very public figures whom im sure would find the time to listen to you...

and please put this crap in the politics forum...

[Bubba]

Then why do you think K won't go for it? It's not incremental it would cost a ton of money and I don't think they're here for that reason. What do you think it costs to open 1 lift for an extra week when no one is up there spending money for tickets, its serious money. They get to make those decisions, they bought the place.

We've estimated the daily costs of operating Superstar any number of times. I'm not going to bother going through that analysis again. But, the elements are:

Power costs
Labor costs for lifties
Maintenance costs
Keeping base lodge open
Incremental cost of blowing extra snow on Superstar

Labor for lifites at that time of year is primarily zero as you use salaried staff but, even if you use hourly, it ain't much.
Power ain't much per day
Maintenance? I have no idea but it can't be much
Base lodge is open (or it used to be) so there's no real incremental cost and, with the bar and the store open, there's incremental revenue

Ticket sales on weekends tend to be strong (in relative terms) in May once other areas close down.

Add in the value of the brand in terms of ticket sales during the main part of ths season. I call it a winner. Pres Smith called it a winner. Allen Wilson, until the last few years of ASC ownership called it a winner. Who am I to argue with historic success?

[jimbolla]

Then why do you think K won't go for it? It's not incremental it would cost a ton of money and I don't think they're here for that reason. What do you think it costs to open 1 lift for an extra week when no one is up there spending money for tickets, its serious money. They get to make those decisions, they bought the place.

We've estimated the daily costs of operating Superstar any number of times. I'm not going to bother going through that analysis again. But, the elements are:

Power costs
Labor costs for lifties
Maintenance costs
Keeping base lodge open
Incremental cost of blowing extra snow on Superstar

Labor for lifites at that time of year is primarily zero as you use salaried staff but, even if you use hourly, it ain't much.
Power ain't much per day
Maintenance? I have no idea but it can't be much
Base lodge is open (or it used to be) so there's no real incremental cost and, with the bar and the store open, there's incremental revenue

Ticket sales on weekends tend to be strong (in relative terms) in May once other areas close down.

Add in the value of the brand in terms of ticket sales during the main part of ths season. I call it a winner. Pres Smith called it a winner. Allen Wilson, until the last few years of ASC ownership called it a winner. Who am I to argue with historic success?

Historic success?????????? Pres sold because he could not continue on his own market changed weather patterns changed . The cost of insurance changed the cost of fuel changed to make the snow early on for the base to keep open later in the season. ASc was on it's way out no money they lost it all . That's success

[Mister Moose]

Historic success?????????? Pres sold because he could not continue on his own market changed weather patterns changed . The cost of insurance changed the cost of fuel changed to make the snow early on for the base to keep open later in the season. ASc was on it's way out no money they lost it all . That's success

Brilliant analysis. Please explain where you get the info on why Pres Smith sold. It's different than what I've read. Also please explain why ASC sending money to Utah affects Spring skiing economics. And lastly, if it's so impossible, explain how Mt. Snow, Sugarbush, Sunday River and Sugarloaf can do it, but Killington can't.

[Highway Star]

Then why do you think K won't go for it? It's not incremental it would cost a ton of money and I don't think they're here for that reason. What do you think it costs to open 1 lift for an extra week when no one is up there spending money for tickets, its serious money. They get to make those decisions, they bought the place.

We've estimated the daily costs of operating Superstar any number of times. I'm not going to bother going through that analysis again. But, the elements are:

Power costs
Labor costs for lifties
Maintenance costs
Keeping base lodge open
Incremental cost of blowing extra snow on Superstar

Labor for lifites at that time of year is primarily zero as you use salaried staff but, even if you use hourly, it ain't much.
Power ain't much per day
Maintenance? I have no idea but it can't be much
Base lodge is open (or it used to be) so there's no real incremental cost and, with the bar and the store open, there's incremental revenue

Ticket sales on weekends tend to be strong (in relative terms) in May once other areas close down.

Add in the value of the brand in terms of ticket sales during the main part of ths season. I call it a winner. Pres Smith called it a winner. Allen Wilson, until the last few years of ASC ownership called it a winner. Who am I to argue with historic success?

Historic success?????????? Pres sold because he could not continue on his own market changed weather patterns changed . The cost of insurance changed the cost of fuel changed to make the snow early on for the base to keep open later in the season. ASc was on it's way out no money they lost it all . That's success

LOL with the revisionist history.......in 1996, Les Otten was targeting for 1.4 MILLION skier visits with the combined Killington Pico MEGA resort. Imagine what that would be like.....?

[Highway Star]

Oh, and while we're getting into it, the FAIL is the lack of sustained year-round activity. There is a big gap right now between late April skiing and "whenever" the mountain biking and golf opens.....and neither is something that is exclusive or the best a Killington. It's not Whistler, that's for sure.

IMHO, they need to run the K-1 Gondola, every weekend, Fri-Sun, ALL YEAR. Never stop. Add another upper mountain lift to aide access to the cascade/downdraft headwalls and glades area.....up/downloading on the K-1. Extend the ski season up there as long as is practical, and start it as early as practical. Offer mountain biking at the same time, hiking, etc. Oh, and golf too...lol. And maybe a really nice pool/pool bar.