easyrider16 wrote: ↑Sep 30th, '20, 14:01Everything I've read from people with actual medical degrees suggests that we are more likely under-counting than over-counting covid deaths.
There's a million other credible sources that say similar things. Just google it. I have no idea if China and Russia are under-counting, and neither does anybody else outside those countries. But here, we're not over-counting, we're under-counting.
There is reason to consider overcounting might occur:
“The case definition is very simplistic,” Dr. Ngozi Ezike, director of Illinois Department of Public Health, explains. “It means, at the time of death, it was a COVID positive diagnosis. That means, that if you were in hospice and had already been given a few weeks to live, and then you also were found to have COVID, that would be counted as a COVID death. It means, technically even if you died of [a] clear alternative cause, but you had COVID at the same time, it’s still listed as a COVID death.”
Medical examiners from Colorado to Michigan use the same definition. In Macomb and Oakland counties in Michigan, where most of the deaths in that state occurred, medical examiners classify any death as a coronavirus death when the postmortem test is positive. Even people who died in suicides and automobile accidents meet that definition.
“If someone dies with COVID-19, we are counting that as a COVID-19 death,” White House coronavirus response coordinator Dr. Deborah Birx recently noted.
New York has classified many cases as coronavirus deaths even when postmortem tests have been negative. The diagnosis can be based on symptoms, even though the symptoms are often similar to those of the seasonal flu.
The Centers for Disease Control guidance explicitly acknowledges the uncertainty that doctors can face when identifying the cause of death. When coronavirus cases are “suspected,” the agency counsels doctors that “it is acceptable to report COVID-19 on a death certificate.” This advice has produced a predictable inflation in the numbers.
Some doctors report feeling pressure from hospitals to list deaths as being due to the coronavirus, even when the doctors don’t believe that is the case “to make it look a little bit worse than it is.” That is pressure they say they never previously faced in reporting deaths from the seasonal flu.
Pretty sure there's some medical degrees in that article.
easyrider16 wrote: ↑Sep 30th, '20, 14:01Everything I've read from people with actual medical degrees suggests that we are more likely under-counting than over-counting covid deaths.
There's a million other credible sources that say similar things. Just google it. I have no idea if China and Russia are under-counting, and neither does anybody else outside those countries. But here, we're not over-counting, we're under-counting.
There is reason to consider overcounting might occur:
“The case definition is very simplistic,” Dr. Ngozi Ezike, director of Illinois Department of Public Health, explains. “It means, at the time of death, it was a COVID positive diagnosis. That means, that if you were in hospice and had already been given a few weeks to live, and then you also were found to have COVID, that would be counted as a COVID death. It means, technically even if you died of [a] clear alternative cause, but you had COVID at the same time, it’s still listed as a COVID death.”
Medical examiners from Colorado to Michigan use the same definition. In Macomb and Oakland counties in Michigan, where most of the deaths in that state occurred, medical examiners classify any death as a coronavirus death when the postmortem test is positive. Even people who died in suicides and automobile accidents meet that definition.
“If someone dies with COVID-19, we are counting that as a COVID-19 death,” White House coronavirus response coordinator Dr. Deborah Birx recently noted.
New York has classified many cases as coronavirus deaths even when postmortem tests have been negative. The diagnosis can be based on symptoms, even though the symptoms are often similar to those of the seasonal flu.
The Centers for Disease Control guidance explicitly acknowledges the uncertainty that doctors can face when identifying the cause of death. When coronavirus cases are “suspected,” the agency counsels doctors that “it is acceptable to report COVID-19 on a death certificate.” This advice has produced a predictable inflation in the numbers.
Some doctors report feeling pressure from hospitals to list deaths as being due to the coronavirus, even when the doctors don’t believe that is the case “to make it look a little bit worse than it is.” That is pressure they say they never previously faced in reporting deaths from the seasonal flu.
Pretty sure there's some medical degrees in that article.
The MA Covid Dashboard contains a chart which breaks down the 9,210 "Covid deaths" in MA into two categories; those with underlying conditions, and those without.
98.2% of "Covid deaths" in MA had underlying conditions with an average age of death coming in at 82 years old. 60% of deaths (5,500) occurred in a long term care facility. 1.8% of deaths (extrapolated as 166 people) had no underlying conditions. The data suggests Covid alone isn't that deadly and an overly inflated Covid death rate... Tom Brady, please weigh in.
easyrider16 wrote: ↑Sep 30th, '20, 14:50
Well okay, I guess it's like climate change. If you don't like what one scientist says, just find one who says what you like.
Except that in 3 years or so we'll have a dramatically better idea of COVID statistics, and climate change will be just as contentious.
easyrider16 wrote: ↑Sep 30th, '20, 14:01Everything I've read from people with actual medical degrees suggests that we are more likely under-counting than over-counting covid deaths.
There's a million other credible sources that say similar things. Just google it. I have no idea if China and Russia are under-counting, and neither does anybody else outside those countries. But here, we're not over-counting, we're under-counting.
There is reason to consider overcounting might occur:
“The case definition is very simplistic,” Dr. Ngozi Ezike, director of Illinois Department of Public Health, explains. “It means, at the time of death, it was a COVID positive diagnosis. That means, that if you were in hospice and had already been given a few weeks to live, and then you also were found to have COVID, that would be counted as a COVID death. It means, technically even if you died of [a] clear alternative cause, but you had COVID at the same time, it’s still listed as a COVID death.”
Medical examiners from Colorado to Michigan use the same definition. In Macomb and Oakland counties in Michigan, where most of the deaths in that state occurred, medical examiners classify any death as a coronavirus death when the postmortem test is positive. Even people who died in suicides and automobile accidents meet that definition.
“If someone dies with COVID-19, we are counting that as a COVID-19 death,” White House coronavirus response coordinator Dr. Deborah Birx recently noted.
New York has classified many cases as coronavirus deaths even when postmortem tests have been negative. The diagnosis can be based on symptoms, even though the symptoms are often similar to those of the seasonal flu.
The Centers for Disease Control guidance explicitly acknowledges the uncertainty that doctors can face when identifying the cause of death. When coronavirus cases are “suspected,” the agency counsels doctors that “it is acceptable to report COVID-19 on a death certificate.” This advice has produced a predictable inflation in the numbers.
Some doctors report feeling pressure from hospitals to list deaths as being due to the coronavirus, even when the doctors don’t believe that is the case “to make it look a little bit worse than it is.” That is pressure they say they never previously faced in reporting deaths from the seasonal flu.
Pretty sure there's some medical degrees in that article.
The MA Covid Dashboard contains a chart which breaks down the 9,210 "Covid deaths" in MA into two categories; those with underlying conditions, and those without.
98.2% of "Covid deaths" in MA had underlying conditions with an average age of death coming in at 82 years old. 60% of deaths (5,500) occurred in a long term care facility. 1.8% of deaths (extrapolated as 166 people) had no underlying conditions. The data suggests Covid alone isn't that deadly and an overly inflated Covid death rate... Tom Brady, please weigh in.
Um, I think the fact that someone had a preexisting condition or was really old doesn't mean their death wasn't caused by covid. I mean didn't every medical professional from the get go suggest that people with such conditions would be the most likely to die from the disease?
easyrider16 wrote: ↑Sep 30th, '20, 14:01Everything I've read from people with actual medical degrees suggests that we are more likely under-counting than over-counting covid deaths.
There's a million other credible sources that say similar things. Just google it. I have no idea if China and Russia are under-counting, and neither does anybody else outside those countries. But here, we're not over-counting, we're under-counting.
There is reason to consider overcounting might occur:
“The case definition is very simplistic,” Dr. Ngozi Ezike, director of Illinois Department of Public Health, explains. “It means, at the time of death, it was a COVID positive diagnosis. That means, that if you were in hospice and had already been given a few weeks to live, and then you also were found to have COVID, that would be counted as a COVID death. It means, technically even if you died of [a] clear alternative cause, but you had COVID at the same time, it’s still listed as a COVID death.”
Medical examiners from Colorado to Michigan use the same definition. In Macomb and Oakland counties in Michigan, where most of the deaths in that state occurred, medical examiners classify any death as a coronavirus death when the postmortem test is positive. Even people who died in suicides and automobile accidents meet that definition.
“If someone dies with COVID-19, we are counting that as a COVID-19 death,” White House coronavirus response coordinator Dr. Deborah Birx recently noted.
New York has classified many cases as coronavirus deaths even when postmortem tests have been negative. The diagnosis can be based on symptoms, even though the symptoms are often similar to those of the seasonal flu.
The Centers for Disease Control guidance explicitly acknowledges the uncertainty that doctors can face when identifying the cause of death. When coronavirus cases are “suspected,” the agency counsels doctors that “it is acceptable to report COVID-19 on a death certificate.” This advice has produced a predictable inflation in the numbers.
Some doctors report feeling pressure from hospitals to list deaths as being due to the coronavirus, even when the doctors don’t believe that is the case “to make it look a little bit worse than it is.” That is pressure they say they never previously faced in reporting deaths from the seasonal flu.
Pretty sure there's some medical degrees in that article.
The MA Covid Dashboard contains a chart which breaks down the 9,210 "Covid deaths" in MA into two categories; those with underlying conditions, and those without.
98.2% of "Covid deaths" in MA had underlying conditions with an average age of death coming in at 82 years old. 60% of deaths (5,500) occurred in a long term care facility. 1.8% of deaths (extrapolated as 166 people) had no underlying conditions. The data suggests Covid alone isn't that deadly and an overly inflated Covid death rate... Tom Brady, please weigh in.
Um, I think the fact that someone had a preexisting condition or was really old doesn't mean their death wasn't caused by covid. I mean didn't every medical professional from the get go suggest that people with such conditions would be the most likely to die from the disease?
You mean when Prince Cuomo and Charlie the Rino were sending positive patients back to the nursing homes.
ME2VTSkier wrote: ↑Sep 30th, '20, 17:31
Doesn't mean it WAS either.
True, but if someone is in an already frail condition, but not yet dead, and then contracts a new disease, and then dies while suffering from said disease, it's a pretty fair conclusion to say that the new disease is what pushed the already frail patient over the edge.
Here's a strained analogy for you - if you shoot a terminally ill cancer patient on life support, it's still murder even though the person was likely to die anyway.
ME2VTSkier wrote: ↑Sep 30th, '20, 17:31
Doesn't mean it WAS either.
True, but if someone is in an already frail condition, but not yet dead, and then contracts a new disease, and then dies while suffering from said disease, it's a pretty fair conclusion to say that the new disease is what pushed the already frail patient over the edge.
Here's a strained analogy for you - if you shoot a terminally ill cancer patient on life support, it's still murder even though the person was likely to die anyway.
f shooting the terminally ill patient saved 10 other viable lives would you feel different? If not 10 what about 100 or 1000
I wouldn't be surprised if some nursing homes inflated their covid deaths. The CARES act paid out a 20% premium to any Medicaid patient that had a COVID diagnosis. Most long term nursing home patients are on Medicaid. Money is a powerful motivator.
TreeRunner wrote: ↑Oct 1st, '20, 09:13
I wouldn't be surprised if some nursing homes inflated their covid deaths. The CARES act paid out a 20% premium to any Medicaid patient that had a COVID diagnosis. Most long term nursing home patients are on Medicaid. Money is a powerful motivator.
I don't deny this is possible. But has it happened in a statistically significant amount such that the overall statistics are inflated? Remember that Medicaid fraud is a crime, and is often prosecuted, so there's also a motivation not to misrepresent this information.
throbster wrote: ↑Oct 6th, '20, 14:41
"Don't be afraid of COVID. Don't let it dominate your life."
- President Donald J. Trump
Thanks to COVID we had the Grand Canyon to ourselves and the air was clear and pollution free. Pretty much been the same story all Summer. Great year to see the sights free of the typical crowds. Figure we have another year or two before the people return. Please stay home as it is really dangerous our here.
