Killington pricing vs growing the sport

[Mister Moose]

22 years ago you could get a blackout pass for $350.

When ASC was hemorrhaging cash. That wasn't the state of the industry then.

[Captain Hafski]

Yep. Don't remember zactly what year, but the full pass went from $1,350 to $600 and change (had to buy it real early).

Been inching up ever since then.

[twilkas]

On the subject of growing the sport, the uniqueness of Snowshed, 3/4 mile of gentle learning slope should be made more of a feature. I don't know of anything else in the northeast that compares.

attempted to find a basic 'search the site' function on the K website, that would be a plus.
There's this: https://www.killington.com/lessons-rent ... learn-to
yet i'd like to see more focus on Snowshed and K bragging on what makes it such a great learning slope.

I've introduced plenty to skiing at K who didn't want to take a lesson, promoting snowshed as a great place to get their start. some stuck with it.

easyrider, agree - ideally not on a weekend.

[asher2789]

also maybe killington does just fine as a business by charging a lot more and having a lot less customers, but its bad for the rest of the town. and re skid marks comment - businesses used to put the customer first which ultimately led to long term success. nowadays businesses only care about the next quarters profits. (again a larger cultural change for the worse)

Are you sure there are a lot less customers? Cars parked down to the lookout and on route 4 down at skyship on mid-winter Saturdays would indicate otherwise.

im basing my views on what my friends say about how busy their work is compared to previous years. k employees and access rd employees. theres definitely busy days where cars are parked all over, but those days seem to be fewer than i remember.

[asher2789]

During the pandemic, most ski resorts enacted limits on ticket sales, or reservation requirements for Ikon or other mega passes. Before the pandemic, only a handful of ski resorts had any limits on ticket sales, and those that did were mostly serving niche markets. Even though we're years past the capacity restrictions, many resorts kept those limits in place. It seems as if ski resorts discovered they could be a lot more efficient with the limits in place, meaning getting the same revenue but from fewer skiers.

The problem with focusing on volume is that it requires a resort to have an operation scaled to the busiest day of the year, that is largely excess on most days. With the ticket limits, resorts can set their maximum capacity, and be scaled to that, and only that. The flip side is then you are turning away business that you could've actually accommodated, on your most profitable days.

This reminds me of the Amtrak trains serving Upstate NY. It used to be that tickets were fixed price and unreserved. You bought a ticket that allowed you to travel between two stations, but did not guarantee a seat on a specific train departing at a specific time. During peak times, the trains would be up to 11 cars long to accommodate the expected demand. Once the trains switched to dynamic pricing and reserved seating, meaning each ticket entitled you to a seat on a specific departure, the train lengths were shortened to just 5 or 6 cars. If there is demand for more then that, then it is just turned away.

The long term strategy that most benefits the industry is to focus on volume. This way, the highest number of people are exposed to skiing, which leaves the best chance of more people becoming repeat customers. The short term strategy that looks good on a balance sheet is go forget about volume and go for margin, so that's what most, and particularly corporate-owned resorts, are doing. But it's going to come back to bite them once more of the wealthy boomers age out and there are too few young people getting into skiing to make up for them. Then that's going to lead to decreased skier visits, and eventually operational cutbacks at many resorts. I don't want to ever see that happen, but I am genuinely scared.

i dont often agree with you but what i bolded is exactly what im noticing only youre putting it into words better than i can. and with that being said, with new ownership, who knows if the overall strategy will stay the same or change. but so far, this is what things are looking like to me post covid.

[asher2789]

I don't love that they charge exorbitant prices for food and beverages, but I find it easy to get around the problem by bringing my own. I prefer a ski resort that makes money and reinvests it into the resort, and that's what we have, so I'm not complaining.

I really don't care if Killington is growing the sport, only that they are doing well as a business. So long as skier visits are stable everything is fine. Judging from this past holiday week, there are plenty of new skiers out there to replace the ones who age out. But we're not building more resorts or expanding the existing ones, so why should we grow the sport? Sounds like a recipe for more crowded resorts.

To be frank, I think Killington is a dumb place to come and learn to ski. It's way too crowded with far too many crossing intersections that are usually on the less advanced terrain. Snowshed is a ridiculous zoo on Saturdays which seems like a terrible experience for someone just starting out. It's also more expensive compared to some of the smaller mountains. Let the smaller mountains capture the learn to ski crowd. They offer a better product for them IMHO and there are still plenty of them around and thriving.

snowshed and ramshead are fantastic slopes for learning. just cant go when its crowded. and re snowshed... it was not nearly as busy this holiday week as it normally is. idk if youre a skier or snowboarder but as a snowboarder the snowshed and ramshead lifts are absolutely perfect for beginners and beginner me wishes i had this when i was learning. and a turtle butt.

[asher2789]

22 years ago you could get a blackout pass for $350.

22 years ago gas was under $2

[daytripper]

22 years ago you could get a blackout pass for $350.

22 years ago gas was under $2

As it was 30 years ago when passes were $1300 and 5 years ago when passes were $1000, not really sure what your point is.

[asher2789]

22 years ago you could get a blackout pass for $350.

22 years ago gas was under $2

As it was 30 years ago when passes were $1300 and 5 years ago when passes were $1000, not really sure what your point is.

they changed their pricing strategy in such a way that it favors those in the know and are avid skiers who buy the cheaper multi mountain passes (or the 365, which is a great deal) at the expense of newer not in the know skiers who are paying the highest possible prices, which leads to an unsustainable future as less new skiers decide to take up skiing because its too cost prohibitive to get started. in corporate speak, im circling back to the original point of this thread.

[PinnacleJim]

It's not just Killington, but really the entire ski industry that has gone the way of relatively inexpensive season passes, pricey day tickets, and expensive food and beverages. Killington is just responding to industry trends. When I was in a ski house in the 80s it took over 25 days to break even on a season pass. Now it's 10 days or less. Food at the Killington cafeteria used to be pretty reasonable compared to what was being charged at major western resorts. Now it's about the same. Beer is an exception. Keystone was charging about $8 or $9 last winter. But at least we still have lots of free parking and free bag storage in the lodges.

[Low Rider]

But at least we still have lots of free parking .

That goes away as soon as they start the village.

[Bubba]

But at least we still have lots of free parking .

That goes away as soon as they start the village.

Free parking will be remote, thus more inconvenient, thus encouraging you to pay for parking.

Day tickets are expensive, thus encouraging the purchase of season passes, which more predictably cover the resort's fixed costs.

I sense a trend....

[Low Rider]

But at least we still have lots of free parking .

That goes away as soon as they start the village.

Free parking will be remote, thus more inconvenient, thus encouraging you to pay for parking.

Day tickets are expensive, thus encouraging the purchase of season passes, which more predictably cover the resort's fixed costs.

I sense a trend....

And encouraging you to have to buy their overpriced food - since it is more inconvenient to get back to the car.

[Big Bob]

But at least we still have lots of free parking .

That goes away as soon as they start the village.

Free parking will be remote, thus more inconvenient, thus encouraging you to pay for parking.

Day tickets are expensive, thus encouraging the purchase of season passes, which more predictably cover the resort's fixed costs.

I sense a trend....

Far from free, could this be the future to pay for $10 million dollar lifts?
https://www.msn.com/en-us/travel/articl ... d0ae&ei=10

[GMCrra]

We may be in the late innings of the economic cycle. Maybe not that surprising given the speculatory wealth gains and multiple presidential administrations keeping the financial spigots flowing.
In my view, seems people are using their properties less, trying to rent them more and visitation is down a bit. WFH has been reduced. Vail reported fewer pass sales and layoffs. It could break either way under trump, but hopefully if we get recession it stays mild.

I don't think the increases in VT property and rental taxes is helping matters in VT. Nice of the state to come in and tax assess the resort and homeowners at the peak of pandemic inspired boom. You may see more discounts and deals ahead.