Snowdon lifts, replaced or new magic carpet technology?

[laseranimal]

We all hate the snowdon lifts stopping/starting cause gapers can't effectively load the lift properly. There's been some visceral opposition(myself included) to the installation of a high speed lift as it would more then likely degrade the skiing surface and ruin some of the last high elevation powder to get tracked out on a pow day.

Apparently this new magic carpet to help load fixed grip lifts is all the rage now. Okemo's got them, Bridger's putting two in this season and *gasp* even Alta uses it.

Odds that Powdr goes with carpets vs. HSQ/6pack?

Part of me thinks that knowing how to load a fixed grip lift is a essential part of skiing, and that people who can't either need to: a. have the lift slowed down or b. (after failing to properly load said lift and causing it to stop on a powder day) stand in front of a packed lift coral and be pelted with snowballs and immediately lose their lift ticket

As much as I think the carpets look lame and I hate to further lose the fine art of bumping chairs, I guess I've come to the acceptance that I'd rather see a carpet loaded quad/triple then a high speed lift on Snowdon. I'm guessing with the carpet the lift will load FAR more efficiently as it eliminates people stuck in "no mans land" between waiting for the lift and loading the lift.

Yes I know the max skiers per hour is the same with a fixed vs high speed due to the density of the chairs vs line speed but that 10-12 minute ride to the top of Snowdon just seems to allow for mother nature to recharge and fill in some of the tracks. I just don't think you'll see that when the ride is 6-7 minutes with a HSQ.

There's also the windhold/de-ice time to consider. Snowdon is one of the few places at Killington that they can reliably operate in high winds or immediately after an ice event because fixed grips require less time and attention vs high speeds.

[DrJeff]

Mount Snow installed a carpet to help load their main base to summit HIGH SPEED quad last season, and overall it had that lift going up last season with a) more full chairs and b) less stops and c) the instructors loved them - especially the yuounger kids classes and beginner classes. Basically a win, win, win situation from managements perspective.

For MOST folks though there is a learning curve with the loading carpets. Many folks try to "walk" on them and will often almost fall doing so. Once you realize that all you need to do is just stand still on the carpet and it will take you to exactly where you need to be to load, it works. BUT, there will certainly be some extra loading carnage along the way as folks have their 1st experiences with loading via carpet.

[Stormchaser]

We all hate the snowdon lifts stopping/starting cause gapers can't effectively load the lift properly. There's been some visceral opposition(myself included) to the installation of a high speed lift as it would more then likely degrade the skiing surface and ruin some of the last high elevation powder to get tracked out on a pow day.

Apparently this new magic carpet to help load fixed grip lifts is all the rage now. Okemo's got them, Bridger's putting two in this season and *gasp* even Alta uses it.

Odds that Powdr goes with carpets vs. HSQ/6pack?

Part of me thinks that knowing how to load a fixed grip lift is a essential part of skiing, and that people who can't either need to: a. have the lift slowed down or b. (after failing to properly load said lift and causing it to stop on a powder day) stand in front of a packed lift coral and be pelted with snowballs and immediately lose their lift ticket

As much as I think the carpets look lame and I hate to further lose the fine art of bumping chairs, I guess I've come to the acceptance that I'd rather see a carpet loaded quad/triple then a high speed lift on Snowdon. I'm guessing with the carpet the lift will load FAR more efficiently as it eliminates people stuck in "no mans land" between waiting for the lift and loading the lift.

Yes I know the max skiers per hour is the same with a fixed vs high speed due to the density of the chairs vs line speed but that 10-12 minute ride to the top of Snowdon just seems to allow for mother nature to recharge and fill in some of the tracks. I just don't think you'll see that when the ride is 6-7 minutes with a HSQ.

There's also the windhold/de-ice time to consider. Snowdon is one of the few places at Killington that they can reliably operate in high winds or immediately after an ice event because fixed grips require less time and attention vs high speeds.

Used them in Italy. They suck. Lines at chairs with carpet assist were the longest lines we waited in. Its a very strange feeling getting onto it and it knocks a lot of foks off their skis and on their asses. Not to mention you are moving when loading (the chair moves faster than the carpet) and even timing sitting down causes problems. I don't see it saving any time at all...

[MrsG]

We all hate the snowdon lifts stopping/starting cause gapers can't effectively load the lift properly. There's been some visceral opposition(myself included) to the installation of a high speed lift as it would more then likely degrade the skiing surface and ruin some of the last high elevation powder to get tracked out on a pow day.

Apparently this new magic carpet to help load fixed grip lifts is all the rage now. Okemo's got them, Bridger's putting two in this season and *gasp* even Alta uses it.

Odds that Powdr goes with carpets vs. HSQ/6pack?

Part of me thinks that knowing how to load a fixed grip lift is a essential part of skiing, and that people who can't either need to: a. have the lift slowed down or b. (after failing to properly load said lift and causing it to stop on a powder day) stand in front of a packed lift coral and be pelted with snowballs and immediately lose their lift ticket

As much as I think the carpets look lame and I hate to further lose the fine art of bumping chairs, I guess I've come to the acceptance that I'd rather see a carpet loaded quad/triple then a high speed lift on Snowdon. I'm guessing with the carpet the lift will load FAR more efficiently as it eliminates people stuck in "no mans land" between waiting for the lift and loading the lift.

Yes I know the max skiers per hour is the same with a fixed vs high speed due to the density of the chairs vs line speed but that 10-12 minute ride to the top of Snowdon just seems to allow for mother nature to recharge and fill in some of the tracks. I just don't think you'll see that when the ride is 6-7 minutes with a HSQ.

There's also the windhold/de-ice time to consider. Snowdon is one of the few places at Killington that they can reliably operate in high winds or immediately after an ice event because fixed grips require less time and attention vs high speeds.

Used them in Italy. They suck. Lines at chairs with carpet assist were the longest lines we waited in. Its a very strange feeling getting onto it and it knocks a lot of foks off their skis and on their asses. Not to mention you are moving when loading (the chair moves faster than the carpet) and even timing sitting down causes problems. I don't see it saving any time at all...

Agree with SC here . . . arguments fair on all points, and, I'll ski with whatever ends up there

[rogman]

Used them at Alta, it was weird the first time, but after that I didn't feel like it made much difference. The lift there was serving advanced terrain, however. Not really a place to judge its usefulness.

I'd rather see a single HSQ or even a 6 up the middle: the bottom roughly where the existing quad is, up the middle of mousetrap, and then up the line of the Poma so that you unload at the top but in the middle of the hill. This would replace three lifts with one. Icing would be less of a problem if they'd take the chairs off and run the cable all night during those events. They have that capability with the Gondi's and the Skyepeak Express, but they don't seem to take advantage. As for traffic, everything on Snowdon gets tracked out pretty fast anyway, not like the type of lift will make much difference. It is some of their best intermediate terrain; they need to make it more accessible.

[spanky]

The HSQ will put more people on that terrain - even with the same uphill capacity. More people will ride the lifts if the ride time is shorter. I say, leave it fixed grip and staff it with people who know how to run a lift line and bump chairs.

[robrules]

I agree that these carpets do make sure each chair has bodies on it, but at the same time, any liftie that has been properly trained should be able to do that to. I've been to plenty of places where the liftie and ticket checkers make sure that every chair is getting fully loaded. This is an area where K has been deficient for quite some time. With detachable lifts, I don't think people falling down or not being able to sit on the chair is all that much of a problem - although there are still some yahoos who insist on holding their poles in both hands and using them to push themesleves to the chair (or worse across the chair so no one else can sit) instead of one hand to help keep them out of the way of others.

One area that could help is getting off the lift - Killington offloading ramps are usually pretty narrow, causing people to bump into each other and fall. Again there are some idiots who insist on using their poles to push themselves off the chair - but this could eleviated by pulling those people aside and giving them a lesson on how to get off the chair - use emabssadors for that. But it would be more helpful if they made the offloading ramps wider and maintained them throughout the day to avoid ruts.

[BoozeTan]

I agree that these carpets do make sure each chair has bodies on it, but at the same time, any liftie that has been properly trained should be able to do that to. I've been to plenty of places where the liftie and ticket checkers make sure that every chair is getting fully loaded. This is an area where K has been deficient for quite some time. With detachable lifts, I don't think people falling down or not being able to sit on the chair is all that much of a problem - although there are still some yahoos who insist on holding their poles in both hands and using them to push themesleves to the chair (or worse across the chair so no one else can sit) instead of one hand to help keep them out of the way of others.

One area that could help is getting off the lift - Killington offloading ramps are usually pretty narrow, causing people to bump into each other and fall. Again there are some idiots who insist on using their poles to push themselves off the chair - but this could eleviated by pulling those people aside and giving them a lesson on how to get off the chair - use emabssadors for that. But it would be more helpful if they made the offloading ramps wider and maintained them throughout the day to avoid ruts.

your litte typo there gave me an idea...they could use "embarrasadors" to teach ppl how to get on and off lifts...nothing like lookin stupid to make you do it the right way....

[trtaylor]

For MOST folks though there is a learning curve with the loading carpets. Many folks try to "walk" on them and will often almost fall doing so. Once you realize that all you need to do is just stand still on the carpet and it will take you to exactly where you need to be to load, it works. BUT, there will certainly be some extra loading carnage along the way as folks have their 1st experiences with loading via carpet.

Sounds like me and learning to ride the J-bar, when I first went skiing in 1966. Was just a little kid then.

[Highway Star]

The snowdon quad and triple are probably my least favorite lifts on the mountain. I'll only ride them if the k-1 line is absurd and I want to head to the Canyon, or if there is exceptionaly good weather, or if it's an uncrowded storm day. On an average ski day I never go over there.

I also don't see the obsession with the north side of Snowdon. Even with the slow lifts it gets fully skied out very fast. There is so much traversing out and back to get to the trails, that the actual skiing is only about 500 ft of vert. If I'm going to traverse that much, there are other places that are MUCH more worthwhile. That said, I have hit most of the trails in question on fresh pow and they have been great.

Personally, I'd like to see the Snowdon quad replaced with a HSQ (perhaps with the bottom terminal moved down to vale lot some how, but I doubt that would happen) and a fixed quad up Conclusion to the half way point to service the bump and race trails. I've also toyed with the concept a lift from the bottom of Great Bear up to the true top of Ramshead with could serve some great skiing.

[Mister Moose]

I don't see where the carpets enure any higher loading factor. Singles that can't be bothered, pairs that don't want to share, etc, still exist. The solution is a lift packer, which is in use at many more popular lifts at many resorts.

I've seen two styles of loading carpets - those that move and load while moving, and those that essentially just time you - you press your knees against a gate with your tips on the carpet, the gate opens and you are slid out on the moving carpet into the loading area, then the carpet stops and you load from the stopped but programmed loacation. I don't see where these devices are going to increase the loading that much, or will endure given the cost and maintenance.

What ever happened to the signs that instructed the use of a chairlift that used to be seen at the base of beginner/intermediate lifts? Why aren't there signs stating poles off, partner up, turn and look for the chair, stand on the loading stripe, unload straight ahead, etc, at the Snowdon triple and quad?

On the other hand, detachable chairs seem to be seen as the holy grail by resorts when promoting their areas, and many people seem to demand them, both vocally and with their feet when you look at lift utilization on any Saturday at any busy resort. They are easier to load, and they get you to the top faster. That makes it seem a HSQ on Snowdon is inevitable. New England areas that experience icing on a regular basis do need to keep in mind de-ice operations when considering swapping out the remaining fixed grips.

Killington has enough high speed lifts for the near term. 2 gondolas and 5 high speed quads. Resources would be better spent on a new peak lodge, other lodge upgrades, improving the snowmaking system, improving the groomer fleet, improving the early season plan, rather than some 6 pack up Snowdon.

Train the lifties, staff it adequately, put up some signs, and go fix areas that need it more.

[irab82]

Snowdon Triple has got to be one of the worst lifts on the mountain. Last few times I have been on it, it was slow, stopped multiple times. Need to do something.

[Atomic1]

Spanky has it right, get people to staff/run the lift who take pride in their work and problem solved. As someone stated here a high speed quad on snowdon will have the trails scraped off,woods trashed and clogged quicker than you can say ...Highspeed quad.

[millerm277]

I'd rather see a single HSQ or even a 6 up the middle: the bottom roughly where the existing quad is, up the middle of mousetrap, and then up the line of the Poma so that you unload at the top but in the middle of the hill.

Running up mousetrap/BB as opposed to the current route, would likely put it in much worse winds than it's in now, combined with being high-speed, would mean it would probably go on windhold a LOT.

This would replace three lifts with one. Icing would be less of a problem if they'd take the chairs off and run the cable all night during those events. They have that capability with the Gondi's and the Skyepeak Express, but they don't seem to take advantage.

I wouldn't be in favor of removing the Poma regardless of what goes in there. It keeps all the racers off the normal lifts, and doesn't cause any problems traffic-wise because it runs above GN. Secondly, if there ever is a problem with the new snowdon lift, or (if it's High Speed), it's on windhold, that lift allows access to the top of Snowdon.

As for traffic, everything on Snowdon gets tracked out pretty fast anyway, not like the type of lift will make much difference. It is some of their best intermediate terrain; they need to make it more accessible.

It would probably wreck all Great Bear, North Star, and Vagabond..they can't handle any additional traffic really. Also, one might argue that if you make the terrain more accessible, it will no longer be such good intermediate terrain, as it'll have the same traffic problems of other areas of the hill.

[rogman]

I'd rather see a single HSQ or even a 6 up the middle: the bottom roughly where the existing quad is, up the middle of mousetrap, and then up the line of the Poma so that you unload at the top but in the middle of the hill.

Running up mousetrap/BB as opposed to the current route, would likely put it in much worse winds than it's in now, combined with being high-speed, would mean it would probably go on windhold a LOT.

This would replace three lifts with one. Icing would be less of a problem if they'd take the chairs off and run the cable all night during those events. They have that capability with the Gondi's and the Skyepeak Express, but they don't seem to take advantage.

I wouldn't be in favor of removing the Poma regardless of what goes in there. It keeps all the racers off the normal lifts, and doesn't cause any problems traffic-wise because it runs above GN. Secondly, if there ever is a problem with the new snowdon lift, or (if it's High Speed), it's on windhold, that lift allows access to the top of Snowdon.

As for traffic, everything on Snowdon gets tracked out pretty fast anyway, not like the type of lift will make much difference. It is some of their best intermediate terrain; they need to make it more accessible.

It would probably wreck all Great Bear, North Star, and Vagabond..they can't handle any additional traffic really. Also, one might argue that if you make the terrain more accessible, it will no longer be such good intermediate terrain, as it'll have the same traffic problems of other areas of the hill.

Neither of the existing Snowdon lifts seem particularly prone to wind holds. No reason to expect set between them might be more prone. The natural snow trails see a lot of traffic as it is. What keeps people off of them is the bumps and the lack of grooming, not the slow lifts. Regardless, those are not intermediate trails, I'm really thinking about Chute, Bunny Buster, and Mousetrap. Low Rider couldn't be any more tracked out if Route 4 ran through it and they were giving away free wings at the bottom. I don't know what it costs to keep/run the POMA, probably not much.

It's a bit of a moot point. Not going to happen. Far more likely that they'll simply upgrade the quad, same as they did the SPE.