Here is the latest update

Post by **Bubba** » Nov 10th, '06, 13:06

Stormchaser wrote:
laseranimal wrote:because putting in new lifts is SO feasible for this season, god I bet if all the zoners went up there this weekend we could have all of highway stars plan completed by turkey day
I'll bring my hammer.

Plan B - use the hammer on Highway Star's noggin.

Killington_Lover · Post by **Killington_Lover** » Nov 10th, '06, 13:06

i can contribute 2 15lb bags of ice.

andyzee · Post by **andyzee** » Nov 10th, '06, 13:07

SnoCone machine.

RossiSkier · Post by **RossiSkier** » Nov 10th, '06, 13:10

Sugarbush site has the 18th posed on the splash page. Okemo sent an email around today announcing the 18th.

Killington won't be the first to open this year.

sPrOuTPSKi · Post by **sPrOuTPSKi** » Nov 10th, '06, 13:12

Stormchaser wrote:
laseranimal wrote:because putting in new lifts is SO feasible for this season, god I bet if all the zoners went up there this weekend we could have all of highway stars plan completed by turkey day
I'll bring my hammer.

Can't we get that old MG of yours running and jerry rig some sort of rope tow? Or maybe we could get Jesse James to convert it into a snowmobile with a trailer on Monster Garage!!

Ah, the hell with it, at least I can still mountain bike. It's free and both the food and beer are much cheaper and better at home anyhow. F'n weather!

Highway Star · Post by **Highway Star** » Nov 10th, '06, 13:31

Bubba wrote:HS...you gonna put that in every related thread?

Every time I hear an excuse about not opening early because of the weather, etc, etc......

Nothing like removing the excuses, eh?

Post by **Bubba** » Nov 10th, '06, 13:32

Highway Star wrote:
Bubba wrote:HS...you gonna put that in every related thread?
Every time I hear an excuse about not opening early because of the weather, etc, etc......

Nothing like removing the excuses, eh?

"With all due respect sir, you're starting to bore the hell out of me."

Mister Moose · Post by **Mister Moose** » Nov 10th, '06, 13:39

You get a B+ for creativity, B for effort, and D for feasability.

Your problems are, but not limited to:

1) Leaks. You need to use metal tubes and fins for good heat transfer, and they will need to be close to the surface. With skier and groomer trafffic flexing and metal fatigue it will spring leaks quickly. Just wait until the environmentalists hear that you are saturating the peak with glycol.

2) Heat vs gravity. Heat will be removed from the warming melting snow from below. Water from melting in the warm air and sunlight will trickle down, saturate the snow, and freeze, creating ice.

3) Snowmaking feasability. You gloss over this rapidly. Water has to freeze (and crystalize) to make snow, and this does not occur in 60 degree air. The only other solution is to spray shaved ice and call it snow. (Snow is formed when water vapor freezes, when liquid water freezes you get ice)

4) Conductivity of snow. Snow not only transfers heat poorly, it is used as an insulator. (See igloos) The warmth of the sun will not be offset by cooling tubes "3-4 feet" below, and you will have severe melting losses.

5) Ground temperatures. Typically 50 degrees, so you'll need to insulate underneath your tubes.

5) Cost. I'm not even going to check your energy calculation, but I'm guessing you are way off on cost. (Are you familiar with the phrase "Latent heat"?)

6) Attendance. I know I won't be up every week end in the summer, that's what my sailboat is for.

7) You missed the best way to make snow in the summer, and has been in use for centuries. Make, or contract the use of an ice pond. A very big ice pond. Cut slabs in the winter, and store in insulated ice house. A very big ice house. Remove ice when needed, and run through giant snow cone machine. Spray on very small hill in the shade. Zero refrigeration cost, zero tubes in the ground. This is the way to go to avoid severe energy costs.

Highway Star · Post by **Highway Star** » Nov 10th, '06, 13:43

Mister Moose wrote:You get a B+ for creativity, B for effort, and D for feasability.

Your problems are, but not limited to:

1) Leaks. You need to use metal tubes and fins for good heat transfer, and they will need to be close to the surface. With skier and groomer trafffic flexing and metal fatigue it will spring leaks quickly. Just wait until the environmentalists hear that you are saturating the peak with glycol.

2) Heat vs gravity. Heat will be removed from the warming melting snow from below. Water from melting in the warm air and sunlight will trickle down, saturate the snow, and freeze, creating ice.

3) Snowmaking feasability. You gloss over this rapidly. Water has to freeze (and crystalize) to make snow, and this does not occur in 60 degree air. The only other solution is to spray shaved ice and call it snow. (Snow is formed when water vapor freezes, when liquid water freezes you get ice)

4) Conductivity of snow. Snow not only transfers heat poorly, it is used as an insulator. (See igloos) The warmth of the sun will not be offset by cooling tubes "3-4 feet" below, and you will have severe melting losses.

5) Ground temperatures. Typically 50 degrees, so you'll need to insulate underneath your tubes.

5) Cost. I'm not even going to check your energy calculation, but I'm guessing you are way off on cost. (Are you familiar with the phrase "Latent heat"?)

6) Attendance. I know I won't be up every week end in the summer, that's what my sailboat is for.

7) You missed the best way to make snow in the summer, and has been in use for centuries. Make, or contract the use of an ice pond. A very big ice pond. Cut slabs in the winter, and store in insulated ice house. A very big ice house. Remove ice when needed, and run through giant snow cone machine. Spray on very small hill in the shade. Zero refrigeration cost, zero tubes in the ground. This is the way to go to avoid severe energy costs.

Hey man, at least I'm trying.....if you can poke holes in my idea, you can also plug them.......

Stormchaser · Post by **Stormchaser** » Nov 10th, '06, 13:50

sPrOuTPSKi wrote:
Stormchaser wrote:
laseranimal wrote:because putting in new lifts is SO feasible for this season, god I bet if all the zoners went up there this weekend we could have all of highway stars plan completed by turkey day
I'll bring my hammer.
Can't we get that old MG of yours running and jerry rig some sort of rope tow? Or maybe we could get Jesse James to convert it into a snowmobile with a trailer on Monster Garage!!

Ah, the hell with it, at least I can still mountain bike. It's free and both the food and beer are much cheaper and better at home anyhow. F'n weather!

Sweet. Mind towing me up the hill on my skis with your mtn bike?

buckethead · Post by **buckethead** » Nov 10th, '06, 13:55

i'm not sure what the precents are for refrigerating a ski slope, but i work in a facilities engineering+construction group, and i can tell you now that you're likely looking at 10x or more what you have in mind for refrigeration.
and as has been said repeatedly, most people don't even ski in april when the ski is hero, the scene is t-shirt festive and the days are long.
summer skiing in the east??????

Mister Moose · Post by **Mister Moose** » Nov 10th, '06, 13:58

Highway Star wrote: Hey man, at least I'm trying.....if you can poke holes in my idea, you can also plug them.......

I can't plug that many holes. I do commend you on one part of your proposal - pointing out that the small aditional lift required to open high altitude skiing would be in itself, a smaller subset that could exist on its own, and having a higher base could operate longer.

Highway Star · Post by **Highway Star** » Nov 10th, '06, 14:00

Mister Moose wrote:
Highway Star wrote: Hey man, at least I'm trying.....if you can poke holes in my idea, you can also plug them.......
I can't plug that many holes. I do commend you on one part of your proposal - pointing out that the small aditional lift required to open high altitude skiing would be in itself, a smaller subset that could exist on its own, and having a higher base could operate longer.

That's the point.....summer skiing is icing on the cake.

Highway Star · Post by **Highway Star** » Nov 10th, '06, 14:26

Mister Moose wrote: 7) You missed the best way to make snow in the summer, and has been in use for centuries. Make, or contract the use of an ice pond. A very big ice pond. Cut slabs in the winter, and store in insulated ice house. A very big ice house. Remove ice when needed, and run through giant snow cone machine. Spray on very small hill in the shade. Zero refrigeration cost, zero tubes in the ground. This is the way to go to avoid severe energy costs.

Ok.....any suggestions on ice houses? Any thoughts on how much it would cost to get 20,000 tons of ice (~26,000 cubic yards) up to the top of Killington? Cart it up one ton at a time on the gondola??? Myabe they could build the house up there, pump over the water to a man-made pond, and do it all above 3,500 feet? Any idea on the melt rate on the trails, if you had it covered/insulated during the week, and drainage to minimize the effect of r*in and runoff?

Post by **Bubba** » Nov 10th, '06, 14:38

Highway Star wrote:
Mister Moose wrote: 7) You missed the best way to make snow in the summer, and has been in use for centuries. Make, or contract the use of an ice pond. A very big ice pond. Cut slabs in the winter, and store in insulated ice house. A very big ice house. Remove ice when needed, and run through giant snow cone machine. Spray on very small hill in the shade. Zero refrigeration cost, zero tubes in the ground. This is the way to go to avoid severe energy costs.

Ok.....any suggestions on ice houses? Any thoughts on how much it would cost to get 20,000 tons of ice (~26,000 cubic yards) up to the top of Killington? Cart it up one ton at a time on the gondola??? Myabe they could build the house up there, pump over the water to a man-made pond, and do it all above 3,500 feet? Any idea on the melt rate on the trails, if you had it covered/insulated during the week, and drainage to minimize the effect of r*in and runoff?

You really need to get a hobby