Killington Option Tax

[SkiDork]

I was watching Popeye, with Robin Williams the other day on HBO. I'm reminded of the Donald Moffat "Taxman" character who rode around on a tricyle taxing everything Popeye did - "That'll be a 50 cent asking about taxes tax"...

[RENO]

More taxes, YAY! Where do I sign? Ridiculous!!!!!!!!

Yeah 1% doesn't sound like much Bubba, but you just add that to all the other 25 taxes we have to pay and it really adds up to a big chunk of my money going down the toilet. I live in NJ and work in PA and have to pay 2 taxes where I work 55 miles from home! A $52 tax and a 1% tax on my salary. The $52 one just went up this year from $10 last year. The 1% local tax is for, and I quote " for the privilege of working in this township"

Property taxes, privilege taxes, local taxes, state taxes, gas taxes, open land taxes, Rooms and Meals taxes, etc, etc, etc... Once the taxes are in place they NEVER EVER EVER go away. I'm waiting to see what happens with the election to see what more Federal taxes we're gonna get hit with next year. No wonder some people go postal!

Geoff is right. Vermont is taxing itself into oblivion. Taxes are higher in VT than they are in NJ? I saw an article in Colorado last week showing VT as having the highest taxes in the USA. It's starting to become cheaper for us to fly out West for a few ski trips than it is to drive 5 hrs to Vermont for a few ski trips...

[Bubba]

More taxes, YAY! Where do I sign? Ridiculous!!!!!!!!

Yeah 1% doesn't sound like much Bubba, but you just add that to all the other 25 taxes we have to pay and it really adds up to a big chunk of my money going down the toilet. I live in NJ and work in PA and have to pay 2 taxes where I work 55 miles from home! A $52 tax and a 1% tax on my salary. The $52 one just went up this year from $10 last year. The 1% local tax is for, and I quote " for the privilege of working in this township"

Property taxes, privilege taxes, local taxes, state taxes, gas taxes, open land taxes, Rooms and Meals taxes, etc, etc, etc... Once the taxes are in place they NEVER EVER EVER go away. I'm waiting to see what happens with the election to see what more Federal taxes we're gonna get hit with next year. No wonder some people go postal!

Geoff is right. Vermont is taxing itself into oblivion. Taxes are higher in VT than they are in NJ? I saw an article in Colorado last week showing VT as having the highest taxes in the USA. It's starting to become cheaper for us to fly out West for a few ski trips than it is to drive 5 hrs to Vermont for a few ski trips...

You're right....but you're also wrong in a way. People don't mind paying taxes when they feel they're getting value for them. We DO mind paying taxes when we feel we're wasting the money, doing little more than transferring wealth to subsidize people who can do for themselves but seemingly won't, etc. This theory, of course, can be applied to "welfare queens" or local businesses. So, you're right - we're way overtaxed in general and Vermont is a pretty wicked state when it comes to taxes, but this tax (if properly directed and controlled within the town) will show a direct benefit right here in town, even if a significant percentage also goes to the state. The Town of Killington has a pretty good history of spending wisely so I don't have the same automatic reaction as I might to some other tax increase. Still not sure how I'll vote though as I need to hear more this morning.

[shortski]

Any general tax where the revenue generated is targeted to primarily benefit private businesses is inherently wrong. Let the local merchants get something together with the Chamber of Commerce, oh that's been tried before and not all businesses want to participate. If the people benefiting wont contribute for their own good why should the public be made to pay.

If the tax is passed where is the town going to build a central event venue. The only land available for large events on the access road or near the mountain is owned by KSRP. Isn't the land across from the Grist for sale, for about 2+ million. Just put aside the first ten years of the revenue stream and put together a town department to buy it.

Does the town really need another department with the associated employees and all the extra cost that will be entailed to fund activities that primarily benefit the local businesses, IMHO there is no such thing as a good tax.

I might be made to change my view if the town would use the fund to take the K golf course by emanate domain and get together with a developer to build a village on the current K golf course. It would serve a dual purpose of killing the competition to the towns golf course, Green Mountain National, and put control of the Village in the hands of the town. Now that would be something that would certainly sustain long term growth. A long term well planned development that would be controlled and realized by the town and all its citizens, not just a few local and vocal business owners.

Another thing that should be considered is that the current land lease ends in 2020. The town should look at the lease paragraphs 4-7. The state can buy back the ski area and turn it over to the town, now that would be something to see and consider. I have a dream, imagine a Killington where the citizens own the village and control the lease for operating the mountain. The proceeds of the revue raised going back to the town to lower local property taxes and make Killington a town that people will want to come to live out the American dream. Vision, what the town needs is a long term vision of what the town could be in the next 10-20 years.

[Bubba]

...I might be made to change my view if the town would use the fund to take the K golf course by emanate domain and get together with a developer to build a village on the current K golf course. It would serve a dual purpose of killing the competition to the towns golf course, Green Mountain National, and put control of the Village in the hands of the town. Now that would be something that would certainly sustain long term growth. A long term well planned development that would be controlled and realized by the town and all its citizens, not just a few local and vocal business owners.

Another thing that should be considered is that the current land lease ends in 2020. The town should look at the lease paragraphs 4-7. The state can buy back the ski area and turn it over to the town, now that would be something to see and consider. I have a dream, imagine a Killington where the citizens own the village and control the lease for operating the mountain. The proceeds of the revue raised going back to the town to lower local property taxes and make Killington a town that people will want to come to live out the American dream. Vision, what the town needs is a long term vision of what the town could be in the next 10-20 years.

You sound like a Socialist.

[Token_Boarder]

Yes, I think I agree, Geoff is right. Vermont is taxing itself into oblivion. And, so is the entire country. If Huckabee has it his way, his “Fair Tax” will be added to the long list of tax burdens. The feds will end up doing like Connecticut, taxing both income and sales…what is fair about that. Consumption tax hurts the poor and middle class and allows the rich to skate taxes. And, it is the rich that own the corporations that make money off of the mindless consumption of the masses. So they escape taxes and profit from our consumption, and become big fat cats. Then every once in a while we get a bone thrown to us like GWB tax refund, to convince us that the system is working in our favor while he gives big fat tax breaks to the rich and runs up the federal deficit in an unjust war designed to create more profit for Halliburton and ENRON.




Waite a minute: Which Geoff is right…

Go look at license plates in the parking lot. You'll see an awful lot of Massachusetts plates and a fair amount of New Hampshire plates.

http://www.killingtonzone.com/forums/vi ... e&start=15

You already don't see many Massacusetts plates in the parking lot.

[Snowjob]

People....mind paying taxes when we feel we're wasting the money, doing little more than transferring wealth to subsidize people who can do for themselves but seemingly won't, etc.

I don't think for a second I'll change your mind on this, and I'll echo the sentiment already expressed in several communications in this thread - why don't the established businesses fund this? They are the most direct beneficiaries of this effort. Sure, homeowners may experience an increase in renting their unit/home (if they even do that now) but I fail to see how paying for an arts facility provides any financial benefit to anyone but vested business interests.

This is a very small tax, yes, and VT is out of control with the property tax, meals tax, sales tax, cigarette tax, booze tax - give it a rest!

[shortski]

...I might be made to change my view if the town would use the fund to take the K golf course by emanate domain and get together with a developer to build a village on the current K golf course. It would serve a dual purpose of killing the competition to the towns golf course, Green Mountain National, and put control of the Village in the hands of the town. Now that would be something that would certainly sustain long term growth. A long term well planned development that would be controlled and realized by the town and all its citizens, not just a few local and vocal business owners.

Another thing that should be considered is that the current land lease ends in 2020. The town should look at the lease paragraphs 4-7. The state can buy back the ski area and turn it over to the town, now that would be something to see and consider. I have a dream, imagine a Killington where the citizens own the village and control the lease for operating the mountain. The proceeds of the revue raised going back to the town to lower local property taxes and make Killington a town that people will want to come to live out the American dream. Vision, what the town needs is a long term vision of what the town could be in the next 10-20 years.

You sound like a Socialist.

Yup switching teams, see my other post.

http://www.killingtonzone.com/forums/vi ... 687#299687

[Token_Boarder]

...I might be made to change my view if the town would use the fund to take the K golf course by emanate domain and get together with a developer to build a village on the current K golf course. It would serve a dual purpose of killing the competition to the towns golf course, Green Mountain National, and put control of the Village in the hands of the town. Now that would be something that would certainly sustain long term growth. A long term well planned development that would be controlled and realized by the town and all its citizens, not just a few local and vocal business owners.

Another thing that should be considered is that the current land lease ends in 2020. The town should look at the lease paragraphs 4-7. The state can buy back the ski area and turn it over to the town, now that would be something to see and consider. I have a dream, imagine a Killington where the citizens own the village and control the lease for operating the mountain. The proceeds of the revue raised going back to the town to lower local property taxes and make Killington a town that people will want to come to live out the American dream. Vision, what the town needs is a long term vision of what the town could be in the next 10-20 years.

You sound like a Socialist.

If by socialist you mean…believing that we the people need to stop letting the corporations control our destiny, but instead we need to take responsibility and control of our own future through local capitalist ventures and public-private initiatives then I guess I am a socialist also. A democratic, populist, capitalist, independent, socialist.

Short Ski…I like your ideas. I am not sure about the “take the K golf course by emanate domain” part. But, I can be convinced if it is for the public good. I definitely like the idea of the town controlling its own destiny by “owning the village and control the lease for operating the mountain” I think if you look back in history you will see that most towns that were owned an operated by corporations are ghost towns today. A sustainable community is one where the people control the town, not a corporation.

[shortski]

...I might be made to change my view if the town would use the fund to take the K golf course by emanate domain and get together with a developer to build a village on the current K golf course. It would serve a dual purpose of killing the competition to the towns golf course, Green Mountain National, and put control of the Village in the hands of the town. Now that would be something that would certainly sustain long term growth. A long term well planned development that would be controlled and realized by the town and all its citizens, not just a few local and vocal business owners.

Another thing that should be considered is that the current land lease ends in 2020. The town should look at the lease paragraphs 4-7. The state can buy back the ski area and turn it over to the town, now that would be something to see and consider. I have a dream, imagine a Killington where the citizens own the village and control the lease for operating the mountain. The proceeds of the revue raised going back to the town to lower local property taxes and make Killington a town that people will want to come to live out the American dream. Vision, what the town needs is a long term vision of what the town could be in the next 10-20 years.

You sound like a Socialist.

If by socialist you mean…believing that we the people need to stop letting the corporations control our destiny, but instead we need to take responsibility and control of our own future through local capitalist ventures and public-private initiatives then I guess I am a socialist also. A democratic, populist, capitalist, independent, socialist.

Short Ski…I like your ideas. I am not sure about the “take the K golf course by emanate domain” part. But, I can be convinced if it is for the public good. I definitely like the idea of the town controlling its own destiny by “owning the village and control the lease for operating the mountain” I think if you look back in history you will see that most towns that were owned an operated by corporations are ghost towns today. A sustainable community is one where the people control the town, not a corporation.

I'm accepted, you like me you really really like me, Go Bernie Sanders. I've gone from the right of Attila the Hun, to Republican to Democrat to Socialist in less than 3 hours, I'm exhausted, I'm going to go have some of that free government cheese.

[chewbacca]

Options Tax??? Any way you cut it this is a method to get OPM (other peoples money) to pay to increase biz for local businesses. And it is just beautiful because it costs them nothing.

Since they don't want to pay for it themelves; they shift the burden on to the consumer to pay the tab.

This wookie has zero respect for this convoluted plan in which the consumer subsidizes the local business community so they might have a brighter future.

Maybe each biz should contribute 1% to a fund to develop programs which will directly benefit them. Why should the consumer pay for what the biz'es WON'T pay for? OPM all they way.

[Geoff]

Waite a minute: Which Geoff is right…

Go look at license plates in the parking lot. You'll see an awful lot of Massachusetts plates and a fair amount of New Hampshire plates.

http://www.killingtonzone.com/forums/vi ... e&start=15

You already don't see many Massacusetts plates in the parking lot.

They were taken in different contexts.

When I first came to Killington in the early 1980's, it was pretty much 50%/50% metro Boston vs metro New York. I'm lumping Albany, Fairfield County, and New Jersey into the New York bucket and putting the Rhode Island, Hartford and eastern Connecticut people in the Boston bucket. Sox vs Yankees used to be split along the same lines. My original share house was almost 100% Boston people.

It's now swung to more like 75-80% metro-New York as Sunday River and the Loon expansion captured the Boston market and Okemo drained a lot of the Hartford market. There are still a lot of long timers from Boston but you don't see much in the way of new blood from that market in the share houses.

There are still a lot of Mass plates in the Killington parking lot but it's nothing like it used to be. Les Otten made it easy to swap mountains with a pass that worked at both places. Killington was such a mess with the discount passes that many who had the option in the Boston market moved. The pricing change this year pushed away more.

A Sunday River, Sugarloaf, Loon pass will pull away even more of the Boston market. Loon is a trivial midweek day trip or a place to grab a Sunday when you're booked in the flatlands on a Saturday. Sunday River is the same drive time with much cheaper lodging than Killington and far cheaper kid programs. Sugarloaf is where you take your extra-long weekends.

[Stormchaser]

Waite a minute: Which Geoff is right…

Go look at license plates in the parking lot. You'll see an awful lot of Massachusetts plates and a fair amount of New Hampshire plates.

http://www.killingtonzone.com/forums/vi ... e&start=15

You already don't see many Massacusetts plates in the parking lot.

They were taken in different contexts.

When I first came to Killington in the early 1980's, it was pretty much 50%/50% metro Boston vs metro New York. I'm lumping Albany, Fairfield County, and New Jersey into the New York bucket and putting the Rhode Island, Hartford and eastern Connecticut people in the Boston bucket. Sox vs Yankees used to be split along the same lines. My original share house was almost 100% Boston people.

It's now swung to more like 75-80% metro-New York as Sunday River and the Loon expansion captured the Boston market and Okemo drained a lot of the Hartford market. There are still a lot of long timers from Boston but you don't see much in the way of new blood from that market in the share houses.

There are still a lot of Mass plates in the Killington parking lot but it's nothing like it used to be. Les Otten made it easy to swap mountains with a pass that worked at both places. Killington was such a mess with the discount passes that many who had the option in the Boston market moved. The pricing change this year pushed away more.

A Sunday River, Sugarloaf, Loon pass will pull away even more of the Boston market. Loon is a trivial midweek day trip or a place to grab a Sunday when you're booked in the flatlands on a Saturday. Sunday River is the same drive time with much cheaper lodging than Killington and far cheaper kid programs. Sugarloaf is where you take your extra-long weekends.

From Central MA, Sunday River is 4+ hours. I can do K in 2.5 hours. No way I'm switcing to the River... Most of MA is closer to K than Sunday.

[RENO]

Any general tax where the revenue generated is targeted to primarily benefit private businesses is inherently wrong. Let the local merchants get something together with the Chamber of Commerce, oh that's been tried before and not all businesses want to participate. If the people benefiting wont contribute for their own good why should the public be made to pay.

Agree 100%...

[pcgrantham]

more taxes means less money I'll be spending at K.

Let's see now....if you spend $1000 at Killington you'll pay...hmmmmm.....$10 extra, with the bulk of the money going toward economic development activities that will increase the reasons to come to Killington year round. I'm not a fan of new taxes but I think that's a reasonable price to pay.

On top of all the other taxes and fees K charges if you rent a hotel or condo thru them.

Why should I have to help pay for them to make more money? When they said it takes money to make money I didn't think they meant my money to make them money.