Could this happen at Killington?

[Mister Moose]

Those condos come in at $850 to $1,100 per square foot!

Normally I'd throw out some comment like "The village will be built eventually, it's a matter of what design and when..." but with all the demographics changing in the Northeast over the decades, is there enough economic room to build a whole village? All the projects lately have been modest in size; Sugarbush, Stowe, Okemo. Only Jay has gone big with the EB-5 investment shot in the arm, and to a lesser extent what Haystack is trying to do.

[steamboat1]

Those condos come in at $850 to $1,100 per square foot!

Normally I'd throw out some comment like "The village will be built eventually, it's a matter of what design and when..." but with all the demographics changing in the Northeast over the decades, is there enough economic room to build a whole village? All the projects lately have been modest in size; Sugarbush, Stowe, Okemo. Only Jay has gone big with the EB-5 investment shot in the arm, and to a lesser extent what Haystack is trying to do.

What Stowe has done at Spruce is a much larger development than what Jay has done. Granted they didn't build a water park but I don't think kiddies are their target market. All without any EB-5 money. Sugarbush has also used EB-5 money for their development. Spruce village at Stowe makes Jackson Gore at Okemo look like a warming hut.

[freeski]

IMG_1133.JPG (148.29 KiB) Viewed 607 times

It looks like you can hang out with the Huffingtons here, but guess what you can't. But, guess what I did. I remember thinking "yes, this is very good for freeski".

[Geoff]

Since it's been well over a year since I've written about this...

The village is in the wrong place. Rich people want to buy ski-in/ski-out. They don't want to hump through a subzero wasteland hauling their screaming kid's ski gear.

I think the high density housing units should line both sides of Snowshed.

I think the commercial space, not that there is a huge amount of it, should be intertwined with a reconstructed Snowshed and Ramshead facility that includes a ski deck that goes over the existing access road.

I think that the anchor hotel should be located just below Superstar where the learn-to-ski flat area is.

I think the town should zone the existing parking lots as "parking lots" and not allow any other use for the land. Save us from those Texas E2M vultures who will sell every square inch of the land they own as residential housing and put all the parking in satellite lots farther down the hill where it takes a bus to get to a base lodge.

If you do all that, the only impact from how the mountain works today is that much of the "on the Access Road parking" that the fire department hates would go away.

[Highway Star]

The new spruce peak lodge area / complex is huge and really not all that high traffic. It feels like there is activity without feeling crowded. Very high end like a western resort. There is limited parking which keeps down the day trip crowds. Most other people are going to park in Mansfield side or the upper spruce lift lot.

I'm not sure how Killington is possibly going to be able to go from the crushing crowds in the Snowshed/Ramshead/KBL Basin area to a high end experience like Stowe. They are literally planning to rebuild the base lodges, then cram a bunch of day trippers in by bus. The distances involved in the layout are absurd. Perhaps the layout is such that it handles the crowding more effectively? Stratton with it's Village always seems to handle the crowds well.

I like Okemo's plan of spreading out many of their condo's in either trail or shuttle accessable areas around the mountain, like Killington has now, keep the normal base area, then building a higher end village-type development (Jackson Gore) off somewhere new. Killington wants to do the reverse - wipe out their main base to install village/condos...makes no sense. I think Geoff has suggested this before - they should be going up hill with it, straddling the access road by vale lot.

[hillbangin]

Yes it could -

How many of those Topridge units did they sell for over 800K - IN THE MIDDLE OF NOWHERE - no early season, no late season, no bars, etc.

And the multi million dollar houses.

When they start selling those house lots next to Rams head - I think a lot of us are going to be shocked at how much they get for them.

If you have enough money - it's all about convenience - good investing doesn't matter.

And there is a ton of money out there right now - not very evenly dispersed mind you - but there is a ton of money.

Stowe is Stowe and it has AIG - but Killington is an hour closer to NYC and Boston - has 2 Gondi's and way more variety.

K is the poor stepchild - but it's got a lot of personality and possibility.

[KingsFourMan]

No, Stowe is a prestigious address, unfortunately Killington is not.

[Geoff]

Yes it could -

How many of those Topridge units did they sell for over 800K - IN THE MIDDLE OF NOWHERE - no early season, no late season, no bars, etc.

And the multi million dollar houses.

When they start selling those house lots next to Rams head - I think a lot of us are going to be shocked at how much they get for them.

If you have enough money - it's all about convenience - good investing doesn't matter.

The Killington market collapsed in the Great Recession and has really recovered. The last Topridge resale in December went for $559K. There's one listed now for $551K. They are 2,400 square foot units. That's about $230 per square foot. At a build cost of $200 per square foot at that quality level plus all the permitting and site prep costs, I don't see how a developer could consider building something like that today.

I think the Texas E2M guys would have no problem selling slopeside house lots. Road, sewer, water. There are plenty of affluent people who would shell out the money and build a high end vacation home. The kind of high density housing they've drawn up in their permits and the small size of the units? I don't think so. They're not ski-in/ski-out. They're small. To make any money given the enormous site prep and permitting/legal costs, they can't be much better than crappy Killington Grand build quality. Who is going to pay $600K for 900 square feet of low quality flat when it's not even ski-in/ski-out?

[derickson178]

Here is my take on this. Yes, Killington could do this. It's location is better, given that it has better access to Boston, NYC, NJ, RI, and CT. Also, the mountain quit frankly has better terrain and two gondolas!. Now, the question is will Kton do it? That remains to be seen. They should get away from trying to pull in the day trippers. They need to get the same type of customer that Stowe is going after. Build high end condos, townhomes, houses, etc that are ski in ski out and are part of a village. The good news about this is it brings in a tremendous amount of revenue, but does not really crowd the mountain. This type of clientele is looking for a full on resort convenience, and might only ski half the time. They will come up all four seasons. Lift lines will decrease, but revenue will increase. Best of both worlds. There will still be an abundance of affordable condos, homes, land etc that is not part of the newer development. If you have ever been to Aspen Snowmass, I can tell you that there is rarely ever a liftline or crowds.

[Bubba]

Here is my take on this. Yes, Killington could do this. It's location is better, given that it has better access to Boston, NYC, NJ, RI, and CT. Also, the mountain quit frankly has better terrain and two gondolas!. Now, the question is will Kton do it? That remains to be seen. They should get away from trying to pull in the day trippers. They need to get the same type of customer that Stowe is going after. Build high end condos, townhomes, houses, etc that are ski in ski out and are part of a village. The good news about this is it brings in a tremendous amount of revenue, but does not really crowd the mountain. This type of clientele is looking for a full on resort convenience, and might only ski half the time. They will come up all four seasons. Lift lines will decrease, but revenue will increase. Best of both worlds. There will still be an abundance of affordable condos, homes, land etc that is not part of the newer development. If you have ever been to Aspen Snowmass, I can tell you that there is rarely ever a liftline or crowds.

You do understand, don't you, that the resort won't be selling the real estate and won't get more than 20% of the revenue? In return, they'll piss off their customer base by forcing them into remote parking. How does that enhance revenue overall?

[Southside_Bobby]

I agree very much that the parking lots are key to K remaining K regardless of what other resort plans they choose to do. I also think a snowshed-focused resort plan would be a smart one for K.

I'm not against them selling high-end, close access real estate units, and I could see it happening at K. I would hope at least some small percentage of that money helps my ski experience and helps keep the cost of my pass down.

Stratton has been putting in homes right on the mountain. I mean, not off on the side or at the base, but right on the main slope. You practically go right over them on the Tamarack lift. I have no idea what those homes go for, but they don't bother me.

What would bother me is if they were to cut off my car access to K1 and make me take ground transpo to my skiing. They ever do that at K and it's bye-bye to K for me.

But my understanding from reading previous threads was that they are NOT planning on getting rid of the K1 lots.

[Geoff]

I'd point out that the people who are buying $million+ vacation homes at Stowe are mostly New Yorkers flying into BTV. JetBlue service from JFK or private jet from Teterboro. From your Manhattan penthouse, door to door to Stowe is way easier than to Killington. The new project at Stowe includes airport shuttle service. They know their market.

[derickson178]

So, Bubba 20% of several million isn't significant? Really? First of all it's not just the 20%, it's the people that come to the resort and spend $$$$. Quit thinking about today and about your self centered parking. What if you owned real estate at Killington and it actually went up in value? Unfortunately, times have changed, and to be a viable resort Killington has to re invent itself with all the amenities to compete. Yes, some people will be alienated because they can't park at bay one. So be it. I park there as well. If they build a legit lodge like Stowe I'm ok with parking in a different area. It's really not that big of a deal. Small details for a bigger vision. Times change.

Regarding the post about private aviation flying into Stowe. First of all, yes they are tying to market that as a benefit/option for the affluent. But, reality is it's not happening. Meaning the clients that have that level of net worth (north of 100 mill) are not flying to Vermont. They are going to jackson hole, Aspen, etc. Don't kid yourself, not happening. I know several charter companies and they are not flying regular routes to Stowe area from ny.

I like Killington today as it is, but I'm not convinced it can survive long term as is without moving up to the higher end. The party days of 20 and 30 something's renting houses for season are done. It's a different market today for good or bad. They need to adapt to what will make them viable long term.

[blakeslee_a]

Sounds very similar to Claybrook/ rice Brook and now Gadd Brook at Sugarbush... As manager of the valet service for Claybrook I can 100% say that most of the owners are awesome and some of the nicest people I have met, not rich assholes. has nobody on this board ever met a non-rich asshole? Because I sure have...

[Geoff]

Regarding the post about private aviation flying into Stowe. First of all, yes they are tying to market that as a benefit/option for the affluent. But, reality is it's not happening. Meaning the clients that have that level of net worth (north of 100 mill) are not flying to Vermont. They are going to jackson hole, Aspen, etc. Don't kid yourself, not happening. I know several charter companies and they are not flying regular routes to Stowe area from ny.

So the people buying multi-million dollar condos at Stowe are doing it with food stamp money? It's $200 to fly to BTV on JetBlue. If you're buying a $million+ luxury condo at Stowe, your property taxes and condo fee both are probably bigger than what you're spending on airplane tickets.

I know people with a weekend home at Killington who own at Yellowstone club. If you have that kind of net worth, you have your weekend place in Vermont and do your 2 or 3 weeks per winter at your place in the west. I also know several people with vacation homes both at Killington and in Colorado who have a similar routine.