Killington: A chronic underachiever

[GnarDawg]

Why would the resort waste their time/resources on the interconnect. Pico sucks and everyone knows it. It's cold, no snowmaking, old lodge, no grooming, no good tree skiing. The interconnect would be like a bridge to nowhere.

It doesn't end there. Parking, transportation, lodging, the Interconnect, the racing program, Pico,... This is The Most Iconic Mountain on the East Coast, but also the most mis-managed. It's nothing new, it's always been that way. Why can't the Beast be the Best? With all the big money out there, why can't someone come in and make it right? It's the largest, shoddiest operation in the state IMHO.

[GMCrra]

Believe it or not, there are destination skiers to Killington from many states and countries beyond the drive-to market. Often they are checking out VT for first time. I host them at my properties every season.

It would be a lot larger if the nearest large airports werent Boston, Albany or Manchester though.

There is a lot that is managed well at the big K, despite some history of over promising or under delivering. It isnt easy to run a large dispersed resort with a lot of aging infrastructure, while appealing to a broad spectrum of customers. Smaller resorts can hyper focus on a narrower customer base and business strategy.

Why do the interconnect? Because it gives people a reason to stay and explore more than an average of 3 nights per visit, increasing customer yield or increasing customer value proposition to invest in real estate.

[hillbangin]

Killington sucks. Especially on weekdays.

Please stay away.

It's very dangerous and the weather sucks.


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[Heywood jablowmee]

AGREED!...still havent been paid...for MY snowmaking efforts

[moneygripp]

I've skied Killington since 1972, and have had some great days on the mountain. I've also skied other resorts in the US, CAN, and the EU. What I can't understand though, is how Killington Resort has never become the World-Class resort that it deserves to be. On paper, its potential sounds phenomenal-a sprawling multi-peaked resort in a beautiful part of Vermont, with tremendous variety of terrain, and near a large skier and rider population. But that's where it ends.

Anyone who has skied at a well-run resort, such as Vail or Snowbird, has to laugh at the outdated, inadequate lift system we endure. There aren't enough of them, they're old, and they don't go where they need to. The introduction of an "Express Line" confirms their inadequacy. People applauded the construction of the summit stairs? Why? I don't get it. Why should the early season skiing require walking? (Are adaptive skiers and riders accommodated?)

It doesn't end there. Parking, transportation, lodging, the Interconnect, the racing program, Pico,... This is The Most Iconic Mountain on the East Coast, but also the most mis-managed. It's nothing new, it's always been that way. Why can't the Beast be the Best? With all the big money out there, why can't someone come in and make it right? It's the largest, shoddiest operation in the state IMHO.

I know this is a contentious topic and people feel strongly on both sides. So is the mountain a chronic underachiever?
Conversation for for a *ainy day!

I clicked on all of your underlined links and none of them worked

[brownman]

Glory days at K ended years ago.
50 years of mixed reviews are tough to shed.
Marketing as a Beast intimidates newcomer families.
Maybe new base lodge brings some people back.
Horizontal infrastructure .. more curse than blessing.
Ikon and Epic provide plenty of options.

[KingsFourMan]

Killington was anything but an underachiever from it's inception up until about the time Pres Smith sold it. Going back to the 70s when I first became interested in it, I can remember it just kept getting bigger and better all the time - the south ridge pod being added, the 5th mountain at bear was added, the superstar pod, and then the 6th mountain area at sunrise mountain. It was awesome to see all that growth and investment. And their snowmaking system just kept getting better and better as well and was hands down the best in the east.

Then Pres Smith sold it to Less is more Otten who created The American Skiing Company which was an abysmal financial failure taking Killington down hard with it. That set Killington back by years if not decades. That would not have happened if Vail instead of ASC bought Killington. Then POWDR came along without anywhere near the deep pockets or competency of Vail and the slog out has been slow which is why we still see ancient lifts at both Killington and Pico and lodges that are way past their prime.

Also agree with others that they lack blue terrain and slope side lodging and that the interconnect needs to eventually happen but not until after the current outdated lifts and lodges have been upgraded at both resorts. A resort that size in the east would be something special and would likely go along way to attract buyers for high end slope side and village type real estate.

But nothing in the east is ever going to be considered world class, doesn't have the weather or the mountains to be considered world class.

[Big Bob]

Didn't Vail go bankrupt years ago? Was it under George Gillet that it did? They didn't always have deep pockets!

[GMCrra]

Kingsfourman,

What you say is true, but it seems like there is potential opportunity in the air.

How long will it take all the flights out West to come back and at low cost?

Is a vacation property in a fly-to destination as desirable in a post-COVID world? Or does something within a few hour drive become more attractive?
WFH would suggest the later.

Is Stowe world-class, the prices some people are paying seem to suggest at least a few consider it so? I personally feel like cheap passes + crowds and $5 million properties are a bit of a dichotomy, but its sort of the case at Vail too.

Most other NE resorts (at least those in proximity to customers) are mostly built out or at near their full development at this point. Maybe K, having peaked early will be able be able to bloom later and it is an opportunity to assess the market moving forward. I try to look at the bright side.

[easyrider16]

Sunday River just announced some big upgrades and a potential huge new terrain expansion. Might be Killington-esque overpromising but perhaps we are on the verge of real terrain expansion in New England? I know lots of Pico fans hate the interconnect but it's not just about connecting to Pico. There's a whole bunch of property between K and Pico on which new trails can be cut. To me that makes more sense than a village because K has an access road that functions like a village.

[RedFlash]

AGREED!...still havent been paid...for MY snowmaking efforts

Aw dude, please, really?

[GMCrra]

Access road provides bed base, nightlife and retail but most of that spending accrues to small business. While its a symbiotic community attracting guests, its not enough for the resort/powdr to justify the infrastructure and carrying cost on interconnect. Viable village needs to start first, which is probably hindered by the 75/25 SP/powdr ownership of village and overvaluation of land. Killington already has one of the largest and most diverse ski lodging markets in the state, so the pie needs to grown (rather than redistributed) through more and higher value visitation to bring it together.

[hillbangin]

Build the village on the golf course right behind the Wobbly.

Send the golfers to Green Mountain.

Parking on holes 1,10, and 18.

Chair from the village to bloodshed and Ramsheed.

Problem solved.

No interconnect.

No golf course.

It would blow away every resort in the northeast including Stowe.

I'd miss the course butt that's a good trade.

Short drive to Green MTN and Proctor.



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[KingsFourMan]

Didn't Vail go bankrupt years ago? Was it under George Gillet that it did? They didn't always have deep pockets!

Not sure, I do remember that they were having some financial issues but I think that was quite a while ago before the age of ski resort consolidation.

[KingsFourMan]

As a side bar, and to support the fact that Killington was anything but an underachiever from it's inception up through about the mid 90's, most people give Pres Smith most of the credit for creating Killington and making it into the huge success that it became but it was actually a partnership between him and a guy named Joe Sargent that made it happen. Pres was the visionary, but Joe was the Yale educated financer behind it all. I read somewhere else that most fledgling resorts didn't have the brain power of a guy like Joe Sargent behind them. Below is his obituary, interesting read if you didn't already know aboutj him:

Joseph Sargent, co-founder of the Killington Ski Area, whose financial acumen was especially critical in the early days of the resort, died Wednesday in West Hartford, Conn. He was 83. In 1956, Sargent and Preston Leete Smith founded Sherburne Corp. to fulfill Smith’s vision to build a ski area from scratch out of the wilderness of the Calvin Coolidge State Forest, five miles from Route 4 in what was then the town of Sherburne. The two raised $80,000 from local investors with Smith persuading the state to build a five-mile access road in the shadow of Killington Mountain. On Dec. 13, 1958, Killington Ski Area opened with seven trails, two surface lifts and a Depression-era Civilian Conservation Corps building serving as a base lodge. Smith and Sargent, who both grew up in West Hartford, came together with opposite backgrounds: Smith’s was forestry, and Sargent’s was finance. But the two meshed into a successful business relationship. “Perhaps the most important other ingredient was mutual respect,” Smith wrote Thursday in an email from his home in Florida. “The ski business is a very complex business for the fact that it encompasses an array of different businesses rolled into one.” Smith also recalled his friend and partner as someone who wasn’t afraid to get his hands dirty. He said Sargent and his wife, Mary, would travel on weekends from their home in Connecticut. “Sargent in the early days pitched in on trail clearing or whatever had to be done, as everyone associated did, since funds were very limited,” Smith said. He said the two of them did “virtually all the lift and trail design for the first 10 years” the resort was operating. Phil Camp, Killington’s first marketing director and its third employee, recalled Sargent as more than just a savvy businessman. “He was a financial genius and an everyday guy,” said Camp, publisher of the Vermont Standard. “And when it came time to get out and direct traffic … Joe was there helping. If it needed something to get to the top of the mountain, Joe put an old military knapsack on his back.” Sargent did have one bit of advice when Camp started working at the ski area in 1959. “There’s only one thing we require of you,” Camp said. “He said never go over budget.” It was advice Camp said he took to heart. Sargent, who graduated from Yale University with a degree in economics and geology, was managing partner and chairman of Conning & Co., an investment firm with a focus on the insurance business. He served as chairman of Sherburne Corp. and its successor, S-K-I Ltd. Smith credited Sargent with thinking outside the box in building a business that was challenged in no small part by its seasonal nature. It was also a highly competitive business. “He put forth the idea of ‘spy in the sky,’” Smith said. “Flights were scheduled to photograph the parking lots of their competitors, after which the cars were counted. This provided Killington a means to measure its marketing expense and success.” Under Smith and Sargent, Killington became the largest ski area in the East. It acquired other ski resorts, including Mount Snow in Vermont, Bear Mountain in California, Waterville Valley in New Hampshire and Sugarloaf in Maine. S-K-I Ltd., a publicly traded company, was sold in 1996 to Leslie B. Otten, who started American Skiing Co. Today, Killington and its sister resort, Pico, are owned by Powdr Corp. of Utah. Larry Jensen, who was Killington’s manager of business development and later controller, remembered Sargent as someone respected by Smith and others for his fairness and leadership. “One of Pres Smith’s strengths was he was willing to listen to people, and Joe was one of the people he listened to very carefully,” Jensen said, “and I think had a great deal to do with the overall success at Killington.” Added Smith: “Joseph D. Sargent indeed had a profound impact on Vermont and the ski business.